Koenig Billet Oil Pan - Be Careful

[donpearsall]

After having a mysterious engine seizure at the last BMST race, resulting in a ruined engine, crash at over 200 mph, and lots of injuries, I think I have found the problem and it should be of interest to everyone who runs the Koenig or similar oil pan with the swiveling oil pickup. See the photo below. The pickup is designed with a mesh screen that in theory is supposed to provide a large surface area that will catch large foreign objects like the factory pickup does. That's fine in theory, but IT DOES NOT WORK.

The pickup opening that actually does the oil sucking is only 1.25 square inches. When the oil pump is working, the screen is sucked up tight against the opening. So any small object such as pieces of silicone, gasket material, anything, will eventually get sucked up to the opening and BLOCK IT. It sure does not take much to totally constrict the opening and that is what happened to mine. I found that over 1/2 of the opening was blocked by little bits of material. Mostly silicone bits that squeezed out during assembly. The screen was totally ineffective at keeping the debris from the opening and actually made the matter worse. If the screen was not there at all, the debris would have been sucked into the oil pump, chopped into smaller bits and sent directly to the oil filter which DOES have a large surface area to catch debris. Instead, there was only about 1/2 of the oil volume going to the engine and all bearings, pistons, cylinder, rods, etc got little to no oil.

I recommend taking the screen out or making your own that will work to provide a large surface area before the pickup tube. As it comes from the supplier, it totally does not work.

Take the time to look at this very important part of your engine.

Don

[sportbikeryder]

Looks to me like someone needs to stay away from the silicone/rtv tube.

That is WAY too much loose debris in an engine, and it looks as if most of it is due to the engine assembler rather than any sort of wear or part failure.   

Only a very small amount of sealant is needed, and only on the engine case halves.

As for the screen, most I have seen are bent, at least at one end, to keep the screen fairly rigid and away from the exit of the pickup.

I wouldn't necessarily count on that amount of restriction being the cause of your engine failure. There is still quite a large area for oil to flow.

Were you logging oil pressure?
How many quarts of oil did you have in the engine?

[wildphil69]

I had the same problem a few years back but it WAS my fault for using silicone on the base gaskets instead of ultra copper spray. Now all I use is ultra copper. Even without a base gasket I use ultra copper spray so I do not have that issue again

[donpearsall]

WildPhil are you saying you use Ultra Copper instead of silicone on the case halves? I know I should be careful about the silicone squishing out of the case joints. I will wipe the joints when it is all bolted up. But if ultra Copper works just as well I will use that instead.

[Oz Booster]

my pickup has the screen corrigated or rippled , think it was a rpm 2" before i turned it into a 5" pan

light smear of sagless silicone (toyota bond) on case halves and copper spray on cyl base gasket and everything else goes on with new gaskets clean and dry surfaces 

[wildphil69]

Yes. Just tape the cylinders off so you don't get massive amounts of overspray or just paint both sides of the base of you are running a gasket. Make sure you let it dry before installing. I have never had case halves leak yet

[knecum]

Thats not a koenig pick up

[knecum]

Use nothing but suzuki bond, it goes on easy and barely need any, thats a junk pick up, i'd stay away from swinging pick ups, McIntosh only

[LVBUSA]

Mr. Knecum,

    Have two tubes, and am building bottom end. Have manual diagram of Suzukibond outline. How wide a bead around case and base gasket ?.

Thanks, Adam.

[sportbikeryder]

Mr. Knecum,

    Have two tubes, and am building bottom end. Have manual diagram of Suzukibond outline. How wide a bead around case and base gasket ?.

Thanks, Adam.

No "bead", just smear a very thin layer on. If you leave any sort of bead at all, you have at least 3x what is needed in my opinion.   The cases are machined to match, only a VERY thin amount is needed.

[Oz Booster]

and you dont want to fill the groove for bearing oil to the gearbox

[LVBUSA]

Hi John, and Oz,

         So take a glove, dab on the tip and smear sparingly around the designated boundary.  Same with the base gasket I would suspect. keep it out of the transmission bearing C-groove as well ?.  Thanks for the heads up on the transmission oiling supply groove where the jet is. 

I also imagine one side only rather than both halves prior to assembly ?.  I'm taking it I'm using very, very little to secure the contact barrier between the two halves.

Adam

[sportbikeryder]

I use copper spray on the base spacer / gasket.

There is an application diagram in the service manual showing sealant application areas.

[LVBUSA]

Morning John,

                   Yessir, that's what I was referring to.  So the areas in the manual are where I will be putting this "wetting" layer on.  Like I said, wet a finger of a nitrile and smooth it all the way around the areas specified. I figured the halves were extremely specific to each other.  The machine shop I use for tanking and stuff said don't use abrasives on the case halves to clean off the old residues.  They said you want to be real careful especially with the oiling supply galley to the back.  I'll get some copper spray for the base.

Did not mean to post-jack the topic.  Just want to make real sure I have the little things all lined up.  That saved me a ton of work right there when you referred to leaving any bead would be three times too much......also, I noticed the oiling groove next to the trans bearing where I removed the jet for cleaning.  That looked like a treacherous and potentially dangerous place to leave anything that might get in the way.

That's why I asked about the c-groove for the trans bearing.

So wet one half prior to assembling, and call it good ?.   

Very good Sir, and thanks.   

[knecum]

Yes it spreads well, only a thin layer where the book says, for the base gasket if it's new requires no sealant, if you reusing it I would use Gasgazinch, you can buy from Summit racing, apply it on both sides and case and block very lightly, like dabbing, let it dry for 5 mins then assemble. New head gasket use nothing but very clean mating surfaces. I've even used Gasgazinch on the cases with no problems, but I like Suzuki bond the best. People say Indian head, copper coat, yamabond, hondabond, I say Yuck!!

[knecum]

You don't have to wait 1/2 hr, spread and then take your time and set it into place, make sure the trans pin and bearings are set into place, a customer just tried to save money and assembled himself and he cracked his case. Above slave seal.   SMH

[knecum]

Never bead blast a head or cases, your just asking for trouble.

[knecum]

Mr. Knecum,

    Have two tubes, and am building bottom end. Have manual diagram of Suzukibond outline. How wide a bead around case and base gasket ?.

Thanks, Adam.

2 tubes!!!  1 tube last me a yr

[donpearsall]

Correction to the title of this thread - The swinging pickup is an RPM product, not Koenig.

On the advice of Steve Knecum, I am buying a McIntosh oil pan to replace it. I just think the swinging pickups reduce the oil volume with or without the screen.
AND I will use Suzuki Bond to mate the cases! This engine build is getting expensive.

Don

[knecum]

Correction to the title of this thread - The swinging pickup is an RPM product, not Koenig.

On the advice of Steve Knecum, I am buying a McIntosh oil pan to replace it. I just think the swinging pickups reduce the oil volume with or without the screen.
AND I will use Suzuki Bond to mate the cases! This engine build is getting expensive.

Don

trust me your doing the right thing., don't get a wedge, just the 1.5, tell terry I sent you

[LVBUSA]

Yes it spreads well, only a thin layer where the book says, for the base gasket if it's new requires no sealant, if you reusing it I would use Gasgazinch, you can buy from Summit racing, apply it on both sides and case and block very lightly, like dabbing, let it dry for 5 mins then assemble. New head gasket use nothing but very clean mating surfaces. I've even used Gasgazinch on the cases with no problems, but I like Suzuki bond the best. People say Indian head, copper coat, yamabond, hondabond, I say Yuck!!

Thank you Steve,

I used to use Gasgacinch on other engines years ago.  Really worked well.

So on the case assembly with Suzuki Bond, I only have to coat one half, or both halves in the area designated in the book before assembling ?.  John gives me the impression I need only a light wetting, so that's what I'm shooting for.  The reason I ask is that if I wet both halves before assembling will that end up being too much SBond ?.     

I used to coat both halves of other engines with Gasgacinch, then wait until it tacked, "then" assembled.  Never had a leak. 

I'm taking it the Suzuki Bond will set after halves are torqued. 

MUCH thanks, A.

 

[MICHAEL MATHEWS]

Cant speak for Steve,but I only coat one side.Lightly.

[LVBUSA]

Thanks Michael,

             And you use the Suzuki Bond ?.  As long as the other half is clean and dry and there's no tack time, I would think the other half should grab just fine.

Thanks again, 

A.

[sportbikeryder]

Correction to the title of this thread - The swinging pickup is an RPM product, not Koenig.

On the advice of Steve Knecum, I am buying a McIntosh oil pan to replace it. I just think the swinging pickups reduce the oil volume with or without the screen.
AND I will use Suzuki Bond to mate the cases! This engine build is getting expensive.

Don

My guess is that the oring sucked air and the engine lost oil pressure. I'd be sure to log oil pressure in the future. You may be able to see issues before airing out the cases.

[knecum]

Only one side with Suzuki bond, exactly how the book says, you'll see it spreads like room temp butter, just a dab on finger and glide it on just thin enough to cover the case halve width, it should take just a few dabs to do the half