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Author Topic: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????  (Read 38116 times)

Offline KZScott

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2015, 03:44:44 PM »
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Offline Ghost-Geezer

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2015, 05:50:14 PM »
Believe it or not, guys, I do understand.................it is the same type of drive that put an American on the moon...........I just hate to see anyone get hurt, that's all.  I am just an aging street bike rider, not a racer in any way, shape, or form............but I do understand your motivations.  Sometimes, you just have to do what you have to do, come Hell or High Water.  You have my respect and admiration.   :tu:
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Offline fatnslow

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2015, 06:54:13 AM »
You lsr  guys are in a league  of your own. I wish  all of you the best of luck and hope everyone  can stay safe out there.
  I think a lot of people think just slap on some slippery bodywork and pour the coals to her. I for one kinda thought that and feel dumb for thinking it. I figured your going so fast all you had to deal with was the wind you were coming head on with.

I guess if it was easy everybody  would do it.

Offline Ghost-Geezer

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #78 on: November 13, 2015, 11:20:24 PM »
Just about as easy as catchin' a bullet in your teeth, IMO.  :slt:
"The thrill of Boost cannot be duplicated on earth."

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"Step UP or Step Aside"

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Offline TrickTom1

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2015, 11:42:44 PM »
Since we are on the subject, I'm going to throw the question/observation out there just to try and learn.

What procedure can tell you the effects of wind on your body work when the wind is coming from different directions as you travel down the track?  I've seen wind tunnel test and looked at CFD data, but can they really give you a sense of what happens when wind gust hits the bike at different angles within a single run?
it can get hairy quickly as it pushes you off your straight line. You have to decide to quickly to either roll off the throttle or lean into it to get back on your line. Smart thing to do is shut it down.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 11:48:00 PM by TrickTom1 »

Offline Big CC Racing

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2016, 10:55:16 AM »
Having land speed aero tested bodywork to go quicker is great if the wind is in the same damn direction to keep you safe. Maybe that happens in the US. If you had that bodywork on at Elvington in the UK you would seriously risk being blown over on the bike from side gusting


Offline Wolf

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2016, 08:28:13 PM »
A lot of wise and knowledgable men have spoken in this thread. Aerodynamics is certainly key in going fast. Least amount of drag with the right amount of downforce. LSR fairings do not tolerate hardly any crosswind, so leave the bike in the trailer if the winds are not favorable.

Horsepower is not an issue. One phonecall to Richard, Sean or Seb (in no particular order) and you will have more than enough to go 300+ in the mile or 311+ in the 1.5. It is all the other things that need to be right. Correct wheelbase, swing arm length, weight distribution, CG etc etc. Then comes the analysis of the data logging so maximum HP for every segment can be applied during the entire run.

Large Formula 1 team use to have two wind tunnels ((different scale cars) operating 24/7 before the rules clamped down on that in the interest of cost. They also use CFD extensively to simulate different conditions, including sideslip and crosswind. They can tell with fairly good accuracy how new bits on the car will behave on the track. But they have armies of aerodynamicists, many with PHDs and still don't always get it right mostly due to calibration errors. The bottom line is; even a well tested fairing may not perform as expected during actual use. Trial and error. Bill, as described earlier in this thread, tirelessly pursued perfection in all areas mentioned above.

Records will always be broken; it is just a matter of time. Maybe Bill's speeds will be exceeded in our lifetime, maybe not. The bar is high.








Offline Big CC Racing

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2016, 02:16:01 AM »
The other issue in the UK at Elvington is the noise restrictions. Exhausts have to be under 105db, so silenced. At 30 psi that's maybe 50hp difference in reduced power

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2016, 04:53:20 AM »
Is Elvington the only option in the UK? Are there any other possibilities? Is anybody pursuing other opportunities?
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Offline fvance

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2016, 09:25:49 AM »
That is Bills old "street bike" shown in the wind tunnel. It was a FIM, SCTA legal MPS bike. Its fastest run was 279+, I think.
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Offline Ghost-Geezer

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2016, 09:27:59 AM »
The other issue in the UK at Elvington is the noise restrictions. Exhausts have to be under 105db, so silenced. At 30 psi that's maybe 50hp difference in reduced power

Why the DB restriction on a closed course high speed run?  I don't get it.  These are NOT street bikes.   :?
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"Step UP or Step Aside"

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2016, 09:53:21 AM »
It's the neighbors.
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Offline Ghost-Geezer

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2016, 10:40:08 AM »
OMG, I forgot about the "neighbors".   England is so small there are prolly homes all over that track area.  Kinda like the "noise abatement" procedures some Airlines Pilots have to take when departing because of "the neighbors".   Sucks for a hi-speed pass on a beautifully built bike, IMO.  Oh, well.  It is what it is.  If I were in charge I would set the DB level at 150 and leave it at that.  But, I ain't in charge of nuthin' but my checking account.  And the bills get most of that. 

Computer tells me that 150DB is like a jet take off at 25 meters = point of eardrum rupture.   :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 10:43:23 AM by Ghost-Geezer »
"The thrill of Boost cannot be duplicated on earth."

"One drink is too many and a thousand is not enuf."

"Step UP or Step Aside"

"Four wheels moves the body,
Two wheels moves the soul."

Offline Big CC Racing

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #88 on: February 10, 2016, 10:24:37 AM »
Its very contentious. The airfield was there long before the houses & people buy houses next to an airfield that is used for motorsport & then complain like its someone elses fault because of the noise. Stupid fucks actually get listened to by the local councils.


The only other runway is Woodbridge & has deteriorated too much combined with the RAF cancelling the last bunch of events that tried to be held there.


This is also the reason only the 1 mile is being done rather than 1.4 at Elvington. To give a half mile clearance from the complaining tosser in his house. 

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #89 on: February 10, 2016, 12:12:21 PM »
You would think that 110-115 db would be "reasonable".  It is not like they have these meets and practices every day, I would assume.  I say "Let the 'Neighbors' eat cake", and let the dbs go to 115 at least.   The "council" sucketh, IMO. 

My computer says 115DB is the equivalent of a "loud  Rock Concert".    That is my definition of "reasonable".   105 is kids stuff.   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 12:14:54 PM by Ghost-Geezer »
"The thrill of Boost cannot be duplicated on earth."

"One drink is too many and a thousand is not enuf."

"Step UP or Step Aside"

"Four wheels moves the body,
Two wheels moves the soul."

Offline gsx-rboy750

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2016, 10:47:31 PM »
Two reasons it will be broken
Hass/Serifini racings hayabusa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTFTDbc3F6Q

Tredway/Stubbs Racing Hayabusa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRLVz0q7KLY
I had said yes on the first page. I had reasons.
Sorry both bikes too good not to share again.

Offline scott g

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2016, 12:23:09 PM »
Quite right on all of it !

Guy's crash, and Shane's "moment" bring us
back to the vagaries of "the wind.".......

Some motorcycles look very good in the wind tunnel:

Stable, smooth and efficient.
Most are less so.

Quartering winds are a problem.

Bikes can (as we all know) be
"blown off course" by a strong side wind.

A wind tunnel that can pivot the bike on the
vertical axis will allow assessment of
the bikes susceptibility to "yaw."

As part of motorcycle dynamics, "yaw" is usually
 accompanied by "roll" - the bike also leans to one side.

The Caputo bike and the Hass bike both have (had)
extensive "flat bottoms." These go right from the
front to the back, and are pretty wide.

In cars, this flat bottom can be used for significant "grounds effects,"
which allow high down-force, and "keep the car on the ground." 
Some race cars have more "down force" than the weight of the car. 
That means that they could literally drive upside down !

How does that work out with bikes ?

The Caputo and Hass bikes are also pretty tall, and both have
 (had) a lot of "vertical side area" that is part of the "flat bottom" design.

The "vertical side area" makes the bike much more susceptible
to side winds - and that results in more yaw and roll.

When the bike rolls (leans), the flat bottom is higher on one side than the other.

That happens with race cars too, but there is a significant difference:
The car might be 5 feet wide, and might tilt one inch, a 1- 60 ratio.

The bike, on the other hand, might be
20 inches wide and "tilt" two inches, or a 1-10 ratio

Cars are very careful about how they allow air to "spill out"
from underneath, since they do not not want more down force
 on one side than the other, and thus upset the suspension. 

"Skirts" and tunnels are used to assist control of the air.

The bikes we are talking about here have no skirts or tunnels,
and so very little control of "spillage."

If these (potentially 300 mph) bikes are generating significant downforce,
and that is lost - suddenly - in a gust of side wind, what happens to
the downforce and the bike stability ?

Does the sudden loss of downforce also
suddenly "lift" the bike off it's tires ?

Does (because of the roll) the bike get "thrown sideways ?

EVERY very-fast sit-on LSR bike (with a fairing)
so far has had a round bottom.

Is there a reason for that ?


 



A lot of wise and knowledgable men have spoken in this thread. Aerodynamics is certainly key in going fast. Least amount of drag with the right amount of downforce. LSR fairings do not tolerate hardly any crosswind, so leave the bike in the trailer if the winds are not favorable.

Horsepower is not an issue. One phonecall to Richard, Sean or Seb (in no particular order) and you will have more than enough to go 300+ in the mile or 311+ in the 1.5. It is all the other things that need to be right. Correct wheelbase, swing arm length, weight distribution, CG etc etc. Then comes the analysis of the data logging so maximum HP for every segment can be applied during the entire run.

Large Formula 1 team use to have two wind tunnels ((different scale cars) operating 24/7 before the rules clamped down on that in the interest of cost. They also use CFD extensively to simulate different conditions, including sideslip and crosswind. They can tell with fairly good accuracy how new bits on the car will behave on the track. But they have armies of aerodynamicists, many with PHDs and still don't always get it right mostly due to calibration errors. The bottom line is; even a well tested fairing may not perform as expected during actual use. Trial and error. Bill, as described earlier in this thread, tirelessly pursued perfection in all areas mentioned above.

Records will always be broken; it is just a matter of time. Maybe Bill's speeds will be exceeded in our lifetime, maybe not. The bar is high.





Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2016, 11:59:27 PM »
Scott  in 2012  we has 6-8mph quartering wind at the Shootout , at over 250 mph (with my very small fairings in comparison to some ) i had enough lean to wear the corner off the lower rhs , my belly pan was flat bottomed for 8" width most of its length and 3" off the ground at rest and i think pretty close to the ground at speed ,
sort of scares me to look at the Hass video  and see how wide and low the bike is even without downforce   
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Offline gsx-rboy750

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #93 on: May 06, 2016, 08:53:41 PM »
SCOTT YOU BRING UP SOME GOOD POINTS. I actually have been thinking a lot about what you said.
ok done. I personally believe now that regardless of the fairing extreme caution should be taken as far a wind conditions. I agree with your assertion about the belly pan becoming a air foil at higher lean angles causing lift and there for less traction and steering when it is need most. I am deciding on what fairing to go with and how to modify it. However my goal not as fast as these gentleman. Did Bills have a flat or round bottom?

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #94 on: May 06, 2016, 09:25:21 PM »
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Offline Wolf

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2016, 10:29:07 PM »



Offline Landspeed Larry

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2016, 11:30:42 PM »
Wow, I had never seen these photos (and I paid for this session). Bill stopped at A2 on his way to Maxton to run the bike for the first time. He learned the bike had front lift as built and on the track that one waste gate was not enough for a GTX42. He only ran half track that weekend but had some wild rides. His quote was "Compaired to the streetbike, this one is fast".  He built a chin spoiler and added a second waste gate. Two weeks later he went to Loring and the rest is history.   LSL
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 11:32:49 PM by Landspeed Larry »
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Offline speedduck

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #97 on: May 08, 2016, 02:32:58 AM »
 Can you run those big fairings with open bottom ?

Offline scott g

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Re: Will Bill Warner's speeds be beat???????????????
« Reply #98 on: May 08, 2016, 11:10:38 AM »
WOLF photo.................





There are a few of us that used an extended exhaust
pipe on our fast turbo bikes.  Some are VERY fast.

A year or two ago, the Formula One (F1) guys were blowing
their exhaust over wings at the rear of their cars.
 This extra airflow caused increased down-force,
at no extra horsepower cost from the engines,
since the exhaust was "waste" horsepower.

You will see that on Bill's bike, the pipe, when blowing
out the right side of the bike, will tend to draw a lot
of air past the right side of the bike, when at speed.

Could that "blowing" have caused a high-speed differential
pressure on the right side of the bike, especially as compared
to the left side ?

Would the "blowing" create a "low pressure" area on the bike
right side that would increase with both speed and applied-horsepower ?

Would that sort of pressure differential cause
the bike to "tend to turn to the right ?"

Is it possible that, the faster the bike accelerated,
the faster that "zone of instability" would "unexpectedly" arrive to the rider?

Bill's final run turned from astounding acceleration
to crash at over 300 mph in less than a mile.

With a turn to the right......................