Can you run with the Big Boys in the 1000cc class ?

[scott g]

With the Hayabusa dominating all the classes of 1350cc and over,
there is increasing attention on the 1000cc class.

Here are the fastest records world-wide in the 1000cc class:


251.718 TEAM AMO GUTHRIE (Joe Amo) 2009 @ Bonneville
245.108 SABATINELLI GUTHRIE RACING (Dean Sabatinelli) 2011 @ Maxton
243.1…..HASS-SERAFINI (Don Hass) 2013 @ Wilmington
241.128 RALPH HUDSON (Ralph Hudson) 2013 @ El Mirage

Amo, Sabatanelli and Hass have long found
a productive home in the one liter class, while
Hudson is an experienced racer
who has recently joined "the Club."

Amo has several records at Bonneville.

[MJ Williams]

I think Ralph has run 260 or so at Mojave Magnum.
Don't know if that is a record but it is pretty frickin' fast!!!

[joea]

Not sure why we grouping and comparing numbers from one way runs avg speed maintained over a 160 ft timing trap , to 2 way runs , avg speed maintained over a 5280 ft timing trap...but that's none of my business

ps Al Lamb FIM record is the fastest sit on bike two way avg record in the world...
it's not a mighty Busa...little old 1000 cc Honda at over 262....

 not an exit speed...not one way ..a speed averaged over a 5280 ft speed trap ..twice ...and the engine displacement was verified ..at the meet ..

[scott g]

I think Ralph has run 260 or so at Mojave Magnum.

Don't know if that is a record
but it is pretty frickin' fast!!!

Are we pretty sure that is a RECORD ?

I was just looking up the obvious RECORDS........

You know, with proclaimed displacement........

[scott g]

Not sure why we grouping and comparing numbers
from one way runs avg speed maintained
over a 160 ft timing trap , to 2 way runs ,
avg speed maintained over a 5280 ft timing trap...

but that's none of my business
..

The common denominators are 1000cc,
sit-on bikes, and best record speed.[/b][/font][/size]

[scott g]

ps Al Lamb FIM record is the fastest sit on
bike two way avg record in the world...
it's not a mighty Busa...little old 1000 cc Honda at over 262....

 not an exit speed...not one way ..a speed averaged over a 5280 ft speed trap
..twice ...and the engine displacement was verified ..at the meet ..

Joe is right, Al Lamb is at the top of this list
with a best 1000cc record of 262.471mph at
 the Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials in 2012.

[MJ Williams]

Ralph ran 262.6 at the Mojave Magnum April 12, 2015, 2003 GSXR 1000.
I'm guessing Ralph's bike is 1000cc since it probably has been pulled down at SCTA meets.
Al's achievement is impressive not only because it is averaged over a mile twice but also Al is not um... the most petite rider in the paddock.

[scott g]

Al's achievement is impressive not only because
it is averaged over a mile twice but also Al is not um...
the most petite rider in the paddock.

He and I are a little "aerodynamically challenged ?"......

Also, He did it with an "M" class bike.

Others ran in the "A" classes......

[FlaminRoo]

Ralph ran 262.6 at the Mojave Magnum April 12, 2015, 2003 GSXR 1000.
I'm guessing Ralph's bike is 1000cc since it probably has been pulled down at SCTA meets.
Al's achievement is impressive not only because it is averaged over a mile twice but also Al is not um... the most petite rider in the paddock.

Two words there, "guessing" and "probably" 

SCTA require a capacity check to verify a record, was this speed a certified SCTA record ??

[MJ Williams]

No it is not an SCTA certified, verified record.

[scott g]

ps Al Lamb FIM record is the fastest sit on bike two way avg record in the world...
it's not a mighty Busa...little old 1000 cc Honda at over 262....

There has been a lot of discussion about "2-way averages."

In "The Olde Days," than meant going one way on the track,
and turning around - properly within an hour or two - and
then running over the same ground in the opposite direction.

Some time ago, that changed to repeating the above process,
but being timed in the "same relative mile" on the return run. 

example: somebody runs "The Long Course, and receives a
time slip for mile 1, mile 2 and the last mile - mile 3.

I believe that BMST - where Al Lamb was timed - can also use an extra mile, or mile 4.

For safety reasons (Cars were running out of room to stop)
The SCTA changed to making two runs (on successive days) in one direction.

SO, for many years, the SCTA records have NOT been "down and back."

Which format and distance did Al Lamb use for his fabulous 262mph Run ?

[scott g]

And, just as a BTW, when Dean rode my "Anvil" to become
the "World's Fastest Stock-Bodied Motorcycle", he did that
with two BACK TO BACK and SUCCSSSIVE runs -
within LESS than 1/2 hour.........

8/1/2010 4:37 1110 Dean Sabatinelli Scott Guthrie Racing APS/BG-3001+/4   269.332    New Record

8/1/2010 4:42 1302 Joe Timney Twin Jugs Racing APS/F-3000/4 200.619  Final

8/1/2010 4:59 1110 Dean Sabatinelli Scott Guthrie Racing APS/BG-3001+/4   269.776    Final

[Oz Booster]

Al's requirement was 2 way within a 2 hr turnaround ,FIM regs and at the Shootout not BMST
there is only one timed mile that can time from either direction , but you could decide where you wanted to start the run
Most start from whatever distance they need and run towards the pits (at Zero mile  ) so you can cool down or service if need  (under scrutiny from officials)

I was starting at 2 1/2 miles from the timing , i think Al was about 1/2 mile further out
 
Reality of the motorbike turnaround it most can back to back runs, Richard Assen took a little longer  as his rear radiator took longer to get back to a safe starting temp range

[Oz Booster]

Oh and records aside, some of the one way passes by the 1000cc bikes are more than impressive , Joes in particular , and Als not too bad either

[FlaminRoo]

AT Bonneville wind can be a big factor, it usurally blows at some quarter from the Interstate end,, Good for your down run but can really affect your speed on the return run,, With FIM, the average of both runs is your record,,,

I would be interested to know Al's fastest run, as it would be faster than the stated record,,

[Oz Booster]

i think it was 265.xx

And we have salt , 8 miles so far  , looks damp from the pics but at least its there

[scott g]

Joe's 272.610mph full-mile time at Bonneville in 2009
is VERY impressive, and more so for a sit-on 1000cc bike

Al Lamb's 265.698mph at Bonneville in 2012 is fabulous.

Joe's speed is third (3rd) on the World's Top Speeds list,
behind only Bill Warner at 311mph
and and Eric Tabouli at 281mph.

Al's speed is 6th.

After a certain point, Horsepower and
displacement don't matter as much as before.

It becomes Riding ability and aerodynamica.........

[AlterEgo]

Great points,,, I also think too many racers are fabricating records. How many people claim to be the "Worlds Fastest" at the club events.  The proper term would be an event record, or a club record where tail winds count greatly, and everybody might get the same 40 MPH tail wind.

When you talk about the real AMA and FIM sanctioned records, with a two way pass, within a time limit, and a wind speed limit , as in tail winds dont count, the course is certified flat and distance and timing rules are more stringent, in and out of impound stringently controlled, these are the real World and National Records Folks, everything else is club racing. 

Search and you will fined several performance shops making false claims who have never been to the AMA/FIM event at Bonneville.

I think Ralph has run 260 or so at Mojave Magnum.

Don't know if that is a record
but it is pretty frickin' fast!!!

Are we pretty sure that is a RECORD ?

I was just looking up the obvious RECORDS........

You know, with proclaimed displacement........

[scott g]

Great points,,, I also think too many racers are fabricating records. How many people claim to be the "Worlds Fastest" at the club events.  The proper term would be an event record, or a club record where tail winds count greatly, and everybody might get the same 40 MPH tail wind.

When you talk about the real AMA and FIM sanctioned records, with a two way pass, within a time limit, and a wind speed limit , as in tail winds dont count, the course is certified flat and distance and timing rules are more stringent, in and out of impound stringently controlled, these are the real World and National Records Folks, everything else is club racing. 

Search and you will fined several performance shops making false claims who have never been to the AMA/FIM event at Bonneville.

I think Ralph has run 260 or so at Mojave Magnum.

Don't know if that is a record
but it is pretty frickin' fast!!!

Are we pretty sure that is a RECORD ?

I was just looking up the obvious RECORDS........

You know, with proclaimed displacement........

People's concept of a "record" varies.

At the AMA/FIM, records are set with 2-way averages,
within a 2-hour period.  This is the most difficult way to do it.

The SCTA /BNI (Bonneville) has a 2-run average, and a team
has a 4-hour period to maintain the bike. 
Both runs are in the same direction,
but the 2nd run is on the next morning.

El Mirage (SCTA) has a 1-run rule, no back-up.
 Bikes are measured.

Loring Timing has a 1-run rule, and no back-up. 
Bikes are not measured, but they are examined.

Same with the ECTA.

Mojave, Texas, Colorado, Arkansas, Georgia, Nebraska,
Sand Hills, North Carolina  etc races
have no measurement, no classes, etc....

(Unless "Fastest Nissan GTR..." is a record)

ALL the clubs and associations measure speeds very well,
but most no NOT verify displacement, and MOST do NOT
understand the AMA/SCTA records and rules.


In fact, the AMA often has trouble understanding and applying
their own rules.  They have been observed to make mistakes like
putting a bike with a full fairing in a "naked" class.....
Some clubs do not make a distinction between nitrous and turbo (!)

IT PAYS TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE COMPETING WITH.

[AlterEgo]

Great explanation.

To preserve the sanctity of the sport some of the organization need to tighten up their rules or not issue records like pills being handed out at a hospital.  I was following someone who was trying to get a great number of records, although for a good cause, after following for a bit and understanding what they were doing,  they were up classing, down classing, side classing and getting multiple records in multiple classes on the same run , same bike, my only though was garbage in- garbage out. Stuff like that hurts the sport IMHO. 

Take Al Lambs fantastic run in 2012, I watched him doing it,  he has the 1000cc AMA National and FIM World records in the MPS aspirated class, and he is the only person who can who can legitimately make that claim, until someone is faster at the AMA/FIM event.  Anyone else making a claim as worlds fastest 1000cc aspirated bike is making a false claim.  May sound petty but having 10 worlds fastest in the same class is not good for the sport......

[FlaminRoo]

Great points,,, I also think too many racers are fabricating records. How many people claim to be the "Worlds Fastest" at the club events.  The proper term would be an event record, or a club record where tail winds count greatly, and everybody might get the same 40 MPH tail wind.

When you talk about the real AMA and FIM sanctioned records, with a two way pass, within a time limit, and a wind speed limit , as in tail winds dont count, the course is certified flat and distance and timing rules are more stringent, in and out of impound stringently controlled, these are the real World and National Records Folks, everything else is club racing. 

Search and you will fined several performance shops making false claims who have never been to the AMA/FIM event at Bonneville.



x2,

[scott g]

Search and you will fined several performance shops
 making false claims who have never been
to the AMA/FIM event at Bonneville.

Could you post several of those ?

Be nice to see an "example."[/b][/font][/size]

[AlterEgo]

Haha  No I cant do that LoL   Come on Scott you know who they are.

I'v got a World Record Bike to build, time to get busy.

[scott g]

 
Come on Scott you know who they are.

I DON'T know...I have never seen that.......

[FlaminRoo]

Interesting point to note,, off "all" the siton bikes that have exceeded 250mph, only four, "Only Four", have backed their record up with a return pass in the opposite direction,, John Noonan, Richard Assen, Greg Watters, Al lamb