World Record, World Fastest

[FlaminRoo]

FINA, Swimming, based in Switzerland, WAAF, Athletics, based in Monaco, FMN, automobiles, based in Switzerland, FIM, Motorcycles, based in Switzerland, have established critera in regards what is required to set a "World Record",,

Meet this critera knowing all that have gone before have trodden the same path,, do the paperwork, pay the fees, run the numbers you qualify for a World Record subject to the orginisations ratification process. Thay ratify the numbers and you have yourself a "World Record" which stands until somewon else goes thru the process and betters it,,

Anything else, be it swimming, athletics, automobiles, motorcycles is  "World Fastest" at that time,,,

[AlterEgo]

A differing opinion:   Flame away if necessary It's all for fun and our opinions will unlikely change.

The term World Record implies Worlds Fastest.  Competing at an AMA FIM event ensures as best as possible the record is of true average speed, unaided by the wind, or slopes, with a back up run within 2 hours, averaged over a two way mile, this is the best test of true unaided speed that we have. Thus the term "World Records" and it's implication.

[FlaminRoo]

Yup ego, one "Implies"(assums), the other "ensures"(validates),,

[AlterEgo]

LoL  yup good one there.

[joea]

"""The term World Record implies Worlds Fastest."""

on the contrary...Roo has is right...Implies=Assumes........

when one "assumes"...we all know the acronym...can  often make ass of u and me

what you want to call the record has little to do with it being the fastest...

this is "info sharing"...:

you can have the fastest FIM record, and not always be the fastest in the world (over world record distance mile or kilo)...

as Roo stated VALIDATION is crucial...

when the premise is to ensure verified timing, course flatness, flying mile and or kilo, no wind aided etc...remember

that is largely why SCTA came about...in its running at Bonneville....and verifying

The SCTA cert sheets say WORLD RECORD...



"Their rules, timing, certified track, wind cert, impound and tech is as tight as it gets, there are World and National Records that go back to the 70's that still stand. Thousands from around the World come for those events to compete.  They have to hire real surveyors to measure, certify track flatness, and certified time keepers in order to pass AMA/FIM standards"

      -the FIM uses SCTA timers , surveryors, and course (yes international course for decades, rarely now)

FIM does nothing beyond sending a rep to look over what organizations such as SCTA/USFRA do to verify


so flatness is same in either direction, timing equipment and actual timers SAME, distance same

years ago SCTA logistics evolved to accomodate meet sizes growing (remember the thousands from around the world thing) and went
to same direction as flatness equal each direction

SCTA timing slips have wind info

AMA walked away from LSR in the 70's.....FIM has never put on a LSR meet

SCTA has cont. to carry on since 1949...

along cam the BUB meet a few years ago, FIM evolved by shitcanning the classification system it had for decades (I ran in that FIM system)
and in doing so the FIM adopted in blanket fashion the SCTA class structure and rules with some exceptions though many largely verbatim

the AMA has also walked away from LSR....it came back on board with advent of BUB meet...

so the "history" you are talking of running against is a few years old , ALL new open records as MOST were not reclassed into the new
system and shitcanned...many an AMA and FIM record forever lost in time do to the NEW system..

so you have a situation where the course-actual timing equipment and timers same......and many, many SCTA records are much
older and faster than the FIM/AMA......

its the SPEED that determines who is fastest....in the world...over flying mile or kilo


ps , I have run FIM and likely will again, reputable absolutely, but lets not think they are the authority on LSR

what FIM does in other racing forms such as MotoGP etc is another world all together, thats what they are invested in



sending a rep to verify what another sanctioning body as done, does not make them the authority

I fully understand, to some an  FIM record is more prestigous, it just isnt always the fastest......



 """FIM is where the youngsters move up to after excelling on the Club Level."""
                  The racers in the FIM "TRIKE" class...where did those youngsters excell at before "moving up to FIM"

[AlterEgo]

Great points and info Joe.  And I do understand all the points you made.  Regardless of sanctioning bodies, differing rules and terminology used and semantics of World Record, Worlds fastest, assume,implies etc...  all organizations put on great events and do their best to ensure validity, all for us to go fast, have fun and collect awards. 

I guess the main problem is so many racers, including I, making claims of World Records, Worlds Fastest and so on, then the media stunts and their claims of being the fastest.  Just recently I started looking at some of the club events and track records, bikes used, and the speeds reached. Then the conversation went, club and track records vs. AMA and FIM records and the validity of each. Just like we are all questioning this H2 running 249 and fabricating hype.  And yeah AMA/FIM records are slower but for a good reason.

 From personal experience, on a 215.8 record I was after, I had a 3-4 tail wind, my down run was 222, so I thought it was in the bag, ready for my return run, now that tail wind was a head wind around 6 MPH, my hopes of bumping up that record to the Mid 220s was squashed, and I barely broke the record by just a few tenths of a MPH, so it is harder when you have to back it up in two hours, now if I could have ran the same direction, that record would have been in the 225 range, So, there you have the 10-15 MPH difference between the two methods of timing.

Anyway what ever event you chose, it's a great sport and lots of fun.  When I go to Bonneville, Colorado,Gila Bend or Mojave I'm on an adrenaline high for a week or more.

Cheers
 

PS.  I've also lost a record to Andy Sills, by .001 MPH, he and I were running back to back and comparing numbers, on that set of runs our down runs were exactly the same speeds!  We had a good laugh about that one.

[joea]

Alter , great stuff...!

I have much more to add later perhaps

I commend you for setting your sites high , and to aspiring to the highest of standards !

Joe

[AlterEgo]

Yeah ,  I'm always up for great stories and conversations about LSR especially when the competition is close and you need that last 100th MPH.  In 2014 the track conditions were sloppy, not the best and I wanted that record badly and we only had about 2.5 mile run up, I was on the ragged edge the whole distance on both runs, I was the fastest of the meet for the week, then on the last day, final hours Andy with his NOS powered BMW ran a few MPH faster, so again I wanted that award also, so I made a sprocket change on the busa, the track had dried out and was much better. Again I thought I could do it, then waiting in line, I made one last inspection of my bike just before it was my turn and discovered a problem,,,,Had to pull out and we were out of time Andy beat me again and got fastest of the meet.

I'm really looking forward to Bonneville this year, I have 5 bikes and 4 racers going, it's going to be fun!!!

[joea]

this is as good a thread as any for folks to "share"....

i have only been going since 1991....our my family is closer to our Bonneville family than many immediate family

many of this family has been going awhile...and a couple since 1949...(one just passed this last year)

plenty of stories to share...

BUT Scotty Guthrie here has the most history to share...so he should start....

Maybe we can get him to "open up a bit" its important....

OK Scott...how about a sample..."this one particular AMA-SCTA-FIM etal meet....."

[FlaminRoo]

I was a little worried that this thread wasent going to go anywhere, have just got home from work, its great to see comment, good stuff, this topic needed airing, cheers fellas 

The attraction of FIM for me is that one has to really work(at the venue) at setting a "World Record", once accomplished you feel as thou you really earned it,,  in 2011 I reset the naked FIM 1350 WR, broke a piston trying to upit, then sat back for three days watching Hans Versfeld flogg his arse to regaing it back, ,
Came back out in 2013, done a checkout pass at 190.496mph, a little voice in my head kept saying "turn it around", made a return into a 14mph headwind at 183.9 for a new FIM WR at 187.143mph,, then spent the rest of the meet between Wendover and SLC University hospital caring for a fellow Australian competitor who had fallen,,
After the logestics involved in getting a bike half way around the world to Bonneville, believe me those "World Record" certificates hang "Proud" on my wall, 

[AlterEgo]

Great story Roo.  The competition can be very tight.

[joea]

alright I'll play...sharing a little story with very ironic parallels to your story ego ...

instead of battle as you described over a meet ...I had the good fortune of swapping record in 1000 normally aspirated MPS class with a fellow from another country (and very formidable team) for many years...often swapping it back and forth multiple times each meet

rebuilding engines in between blow ups on the salt and in Wendover ,over many , many all nighters , blessed to get it back at the SCTA meet in Oct World Finals 2001

997 cc in 2001...

by the way ...it was in opposite direction -2hrs , as toward the end of the meet , folks that were ready could just ask to return

[Landspeed Larry]

  I remember those years Joe. The nitrous diaries. I would come in from the Salt and see the Amo crew knee deep in Kawasaki. After  dinner, hot shower and sleep I would head out the next morning just as the Rapid City crew finished up. All that hard work paid off as those records are still in the book and probably always will be.
 My story of competition was in 1986. I was racing a Suzuki GSXR 1100 in P/P1300. My competitor also had a Suzuki but it was a faired GS 1150. Bigger engine but with less aero. We both exceeded the old record and qualified for the two-way the next morning. He was faster. There was a 8 mph headwind and his tall gearing could not pull it, but on the return he made the fastest run in the class. I was not far behind. The SCTA took and extra hour to check all the figures. Talk about anxious; when it was all resolved I was the new record holder by .017 mph. The closest at that time. And who was the first to congratulate me ? My rival. (He later added a turbo and got his records). What I like most about the white desert, the people.      LSL

[joea]

one of my fav's is your entry into 200 mph club meet.......

for ego and Roo....talking about having to "really work" for those records

what Larry is sharing is original SCTA system that existed for decades:
     -first had to make a run that exceeded the existing record
      - that "qualified" you to make a "two way attempt" to "break" the record.........

many of these records exist from the 50's and 60's.....

[scott g]

BUT Scotty Guthrie here has the most history to share...so he should start....

Maybe we can get him to "open up a bit" its important....

OK Scott...how about a sample..."this one particular AMA-SCTA-FIM etal meet....."

Thank you Joe !

BTW:  Joe and I do not always agree on things, but
we maintain a high regard and respect for each other.

I have helped his racing, and he has helped mine.

He (we) have a few "joint" records together.
(He did the racing.  I fumbled with the tie-downs)

I may think Joe is wrong about something, but I will
ALWAYS want to hear EVERYTHING Joe has to say
about it BEFORE I make up my mind.............

When Joe is on the Salt,
there is no better mind there......

[scott g]

AMA walked away from LSR in the 70's.....FIM has never put on a LSR meet

SCTA has cont. to carry on since 1949...

along cam the BUB meet a few years ago, FIM evolved by shitcanning the classification system it had for decades (I ran in that FIM system)
and in doing so the FIM adopted in blanket fashion the SCTA class structure and rules with some exceptions though many largely verbatim

the AMA has also walked away from LSR....it came back on board with advent of BUB meet...

There is a story here............

My first entry at Bonneville was in 1972.

At that time, and for some time before,
the "bike stuff" at Bonneville wqs handled
by the AMA under contract to the SCTA.

When you signed up and got a rule and
 record book, it was AMA, not SCTA.

Sometime in the late 1970's, the AMA contracts 
were not renewed, and the SCTA/BNI took the entire bike operation "in house."

Those "old" AMA rules and records became part of the SCTA rules and records book.

So, for 20-30 years, the AMA / FIM were NOT involved in Bonneville racing.

When Denis Manning became serious about REGAINING  the motorcycle LSR,
 he needed access to the FIM to receive FIM certification.

In a clever business maneuver, Denis (one "n") decided to
run a race to recover the costs of the FIM "appearances."

Thus was born the BUB meet.

The AMA had to be involved, since they are the "national representative"
of the FIM in the United States (It was not always the AMA, it has been other
organizations when the AMA was being provincial, and found
no need to be associated with "the rest of the world")

So, if you are going to have an LSR, you have
 to have a rule book, and a record book...............

Denis was easily able to get a sanction, since the AMA looked
forward to the sanctioning income, but was dis-interested in
putting forth any effort on LSR's behalf.

The AMA "rules" had not been updated since the 70's,
and the AMA was fine with that.

"Denis, if you want rules, just write them !"

So, he did, and I helped him........

The AMA had no record of their own records,
so Denis and I reconstituted them from
the last AMA meet in about 1978.

And therein lies my initial distrust of the AMA
"as a records-keeping-body."
 

[AlterEgo]

Great stories guys,  lets keep this going.

Thank you Scott for your work in getting BuB going. I can imagine all the time it took to reconcile the past history then merge it to todays standards.

 LSR and Road Racing is the most fun I'v had in my life, as a kid we followed what was going on at Bonneville, Pikes Peak, Indy, and several other venues, racers were my heros. We were always trying to make something go faster, go-carts, mini bikes, lawn mowers, then motorcycles, and we had a old red Farm-All tractor that would wheelie for about 30 yards, it was fast and took lots of abuse LoL.

[AlterEgo]

 I started at Bonneville 2007 helping a friend who had just bought an MV Agusta F4 312, he broke 2 AMA records that year.  I ran the RWYB with my 2001 R1, then I was hooked and made it to Bonneville every year after, and broke multiple records every time.  Even my Suzuki SV650 V-Twin took a AMA record at 128.3 MPH  LoL.  After that I ran a Yamaha R6, a Busa, an Aprilia, a BMW s1000, and new for this year is another Busa and a Ducati 1299.

Here is a picture of my team, Loretta on the left, she owns the 1000cc V-Twin FIM record, and she is a motorcycle mechanic working at Phoenix MV Agusta.  Then myself, and Lisa.  Lisa is a retired Scottsdale Moto officer, former road racer, and a very good friend of mine, this will be her rookie year at Bonneville, her first time at Mojave she ran my busa to 226 MPH, very talented, she can ride the heck out of anything.

[FlaminRoo]

We see the claims by the Turkish H2R folks "one hit wonder", ""Not Even"", debate rages, so many questions 

To achieve, everyone has a story to tell. Read the accounts of Campbell, Breedlove, Vesco, Campos, etc, one soon realizes this stuff 'aint no one shot down the track deal,,,

That return run is the great leveler which can either "make or brake" 

 

[scott g]

Expanding a little on the SCTA / AMA thing:

AMA did "Bonneville" until the late 1970's,
and disappeared until the beginning of the
BUB / BMST period in something like 2006.

That's almost 30 years !

In those "lost" 30 years, essentially ALL
of the AMA "institutional memory" of
Land Speed Racing was lost.

I suspect that if Denis Manning had not
talked (forced ?) the AMA BACK into the
LSR business, they would not now be there.

Likewise, if BMST left the LSR field for whatever
reason (Management, lack of entries, increasing costs, etc)
that there would be nobody in the wings to take over,
and the AMA would (again !) disappear for 30 -or-more years.

Well so what, you might well ask ?

Well, this is what:

1)  Once again, the records would essentially disappear from view.

Sure, you can put them on the web site, but eventually
(it has happened with other organizations) they get
"accidentally" left off, and gradually disappear.

2)  All the time and resourced YOU put into
setting that record is erased from human history

Like you were never at Bonneville in the first place...........

3) Maybe, if you had run with the SCTA, your record would still be there

The SCTA has been publishing their records since 1949.........

[FlaminRoo]

Expanding a little on the SCTA / AMA thing:


Likewise, if BMST left the LSR field for whatever
reason (Management, lack of entries, increasing costs, etc)
that there would be nobody in the wings to take over,
and the AMA would (again !) disappear for 30 -or-more years.

Well so what, you might well ask ?

Well, this is what:

1)  Once again, the records would essentially disappear from view.

Sure, you can put them on the web site, but eventually
(it has happened with other organizations) they get
"accidentally" left off, and gradually disappear.

2)  All the time and resourced YOU put into
setting that record is erased from human history

Like you were never at Bonneville in the first place...........

3) Maybe, if you had run with the SCTA, your record would still be there

The SCTA has been publishing their records since 1949.........

Assumptions mate, "Assumptions" 

[AlterEgo]

 
 

[scott g]

FINA, Swimming, based in Switzerland, WAAF, Athletics, based in Monaco, FMN, automobiles, based in Switzerland, FIM, Motorcycles, based in Switzerland, have established critera in regards what is required to set a "World Record",,

Meet this critera knowing all that have gone before have trodden the same path,, do the paperwork, pay the fees, run the numbers you qualify for a World Record subject to the orginisations ratification process. Thay ratify the numbers and you have yourself a "World Record" which stands until somewon else goes thru the process and betters it,,

Anything else, be it swimming, athletics, automobiles, motorcycles is  "World Fastest" at that time,,,

I have some personal experience with FINA (Swimming)

I have set several world records in swimming,
 and those were published by FINA.

The procedures were ASTOUNDINGLY easy !

1)  Attend a previously-scheduled, and USMS sanctioned swim meet.

2)  Take a copy of my birth certificate - which was a
one-time deal - since thereafter the USMS
(national organization like the AMA)
kept the certificate on file electronically.

3)  approach the meet director, and announce
that I was hoping for a world record.

The meet director handled the rest:

A)  He alerted all three timers to be watchful.

B)  He alerted the judges for special "world procedures"

C)  when the record was broken, he walked the paperwork
around to all necessary and got all the signatures.

I then just signed the "application."

WITHIN MONTHS, the WR was published.

Compare THAT to the AMA/FIM

[scott g]

Example:

http://fina.org/content/masters-top-10

Masters Top 10
•   
•   
•   
•   
[45-49]50m Breaststroke Men Short Course
Rank   Full Name   Country   Time
1   GUTHRIE Scott   USA   32.95
2   BOAK Thomas   USA   33.13
3   MARKUSIC Douglas   USA   34.92
4   APEL Robert   GBR   35.24
5   PER-LEE Daniel   USA   35.63
6   LEE Charles   USA   35.69
7   HANOU Rob   NED   35.70
8   NEUJAHR Philip   USA   35.72
9   OPPIDO Antonio   ITA   35.90
10   HARASZTI Tegze   USA   36.19

[scott g]

[45-49]50m Breaststroke Men Short Course
Rank   Full Name   Country   Time
1   GUTHRIE Scott   USA   32.95

The total cost for me was $25.00,
the meet entry fee...............

This particular WORLD RECORD was set in November of 1989.

It was submitted, ratified and published by 1 January 1990,
only 2 months after the performance.

This is one reason I have so little understanding of
why we "worship" the FIM in motorcycle LSR.

Service is NOT their middle name.......