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Author Topic: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM  (Read 13822 times)

Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2017, 02:20:41 PM »
#2 won't hold air. Now that I have a spot on Knecum's calendar I am way more than happy to have him tear it all the way down and check/rebuild it all to his liking. He is a motor God in my eyes.
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline Rocketgeezer

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2017, 02:55:58 PM »
It's a mercifully rainy day here too. Makes it easier to be bikeless.
I had looked into shipping the entire bike to RCC. I got a $1200 quote...one way!
The bike was fully dialed in when torn down, so I feel good about that portion of the project. Every part the dealership put in was one I saw, except the bearings. I feel they meant well, and did their best, but something did go very wrong for sure. Knecums skills are the best there are, so I fell fantastic about having his name on the build.
 Also, another guy on a different board was/is bashing the heck out of APE for allegedly not getting rod tolerances correct. In tearing down my fresh build we'll be able to see how APE did on the rod bearings (they installed the rods). I truly like the APE guys, so my hope is I can help support their good name by proving mine were/are spot on.
 I'm curius to see what Knecum recommends for needed parts for a proper build. I did not use big head studs or oversized intake valves. I wanted a 500 hp build, nothing more. In any event, I'm actually happy my motor has a spot in Knecum's calendar. :D
One of the guys here looked into having Richard do his bike, he was going to take his vacation time truck it up there and wait,  I think never got coordinated on the parts/waiting deal, he did eventually took it to a guy in NC, Lees Performance I think it was, got to the track went down on his second pass, did not get hurt, bike got tore up, sold everything within a month, don't remember what lee charged him, did not seem out of line at the time??, and I'm sorry if I come off sounding like I'm bashing a shop and I doubt that anything APE did caused this, as you said it made no noise it was still running, all the pistons are going up and down, I wish you were able to see the cly with the scope and see what the top of the piston and cly wall looked like, if the top of the piston was all still there, and the cly wall was not torched, and the piston was going up and down that really only leaves the valve train, and the dealer said when they put in air it would not hold, could defiantly be a screwed valve, as you see from Johns (Sportbikeriders) post and has been into 50 times the Busa motors than I have, also thinks its in the valve/head area, his, Rodneys, and I'm sure other cust bikes they work on at that shop run well into the 6s and live, so he knows what he's talking about, maybe the guys at Everett did do a conscientious job, but there blasé attitude helping you out after taking your 5K sucks, now if they really did the whole job as you say used all the parts you listed and your bill was 5K that's not out of line cost wise, whats out of line is its supposed to stay together for more than 1/2 a pass, as you said if you had some good passes out of it it might  be a different story,  my friend with the shop and the dyno that retired, years ago I burnt some pistons, was super busy at work,  to have time to do much so I had him tear the bike apart and fix it, new Wossners/ valve job/springs, he got the motor together on a Friday afternoon he said if I came over sat we could stuff it back make a couple pulls and I could take it home I said great, anyways we got it together it sounded fine it was late so we didn't monkey around on the dyno, by the time I got home maybe 5 miles it was making a funny noise and smoking out the exhaust, I pulled the plugs 3 looked fine one looked like shit, leakdown ck (air in the cyl) found #4 with about 80% leakage, into the crankcase, I'm getting super pissed by now, did not sleep a lot that night, got up sun got the motor out, tore down, my bud had left a pin lock out of #4 and the pin came out enough to start rubbing on the wall, about rubbed through it, one good hit on that ride home and the motor would have been shrapnel, after I settled down I called told him what happened, took him the screwed parts, in a week he had me a new piston, a good cly, which I got put the bike back together myself, took it down we run 7 or 8 pulls and I have used the shop machines, and dyno many times since, but he never put another wrench on my bike, and since then if I did not have time to do it myself it waited till I did, so I hope you understand my attitude about doing my own stuff, he screwed up, he new it, he made it right, the Everett guys could have done more for you than lip service, he would done the whole job, but that was the very last time anybody worked on any of my stuff,  as I have said several times since if I have something I can't fix, I won't have it,
The older you get do you notice you start chickening out way before the bike does

Offline Falcon-A

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2017, 12:47:01 PM »
Were the valves ground or not? I still haven't read that anywhere.
 You can't or shouldn't ever put valves in without grinding (truing ) them !

 If you do, they tend to snap off the heads of the valves when  you put stronger springs spin it up real fast, it exaggerates the issue!
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Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2017, 12:49:32 PM »
All nice and freshly ground by APE. Also, when it was running poorly it was quiet as far as no noise from bouncing thinhs inside the cylinder.
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline RansomT

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2017, 01:38:46 PM »
I think I said this on another board, but if the valves are not tapped when installed; the keepers may not seat and cause a valve to drop.
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Offline Falcon-A

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2017, 08:52:31 PM »
I think I said this on another board, but if the valves are not tapped when installed; the keepers may not seat and cause a valve to drop.

 Yes very true!
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Offline sportbikeryder

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2017, 11:53:29 PM »
Were the valves ground or not? I still haven't read that anywhere.
 You can't or shouldn't ever put valves in without grinding (truing ) them !

 If you do, they tend to snap off the heads of the valves when  you put stronger springs spin it up real fast, it exaggerates the issue!

I've installed many valves and never once touched the valve face. Perhaps this is in reference to some automotive after market valves?

I'm pretty sure we Rev them high enough and put them through at least a little abuse now and them  :D

There is a kwikway machine in the shop. Hasn't even been turned on in years.
Any day on a motorcycle like this that ends just needing parts and labor is a good day.
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Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2017, 06:57:53 PM »
Thing that lights a bulb for me is the manual chain adjuster at a dealership

Also very rarely touch the valve faces
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Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2017, 07:04:37 PM »
The dealership called today. They said it was a head gasket failure although they could not find any parks that are defective. I am going to inspect the mating surfaces as I suspect they got gouged them on assembly. The head was fresh and back from ape And the cylinder top was inspected there as well.
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline MJ Williams

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2017, 01:24:51 PM »
That is a heck of a head gasket "failure". I'd go with gasket failure secondary to workmanship issue.
Have a Harley, spent lots of money on it, thought I had a fast motorcycle, bought a Busa, realized all I had was a fast Harley, not a fast motorcycle!

Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2017, 01:32:30 PM »
Me too for sure. Gaskets dont fail with freshly milled heads, news studs @ 60 lbs and a checked and certified flat cylinder. APE said they could check the head the same day they receive it (love them). My guess is that the unprotected storage next to the bottom of the cylinder led to bumping of the heads sealing surface and gouged it. Good thing is there will be discernable evidence if this happend. You cant just dissassemble a failed motor and put it back together and call it good. Something was off.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 09:52:59 AM by turbojonn »
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2017, 11:28:36 PM »
Or the head was not clamped hard on the gasket, perched by something like wrong dowl pin ,or just not tensioned ???
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Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2017, 01:20:40 AM »
Hmmm, can a stock length dowel pin be too long for a milled head?
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2017, 09:09:21 AM »
So you've determined it was just a head gasket failure... have you looked at both surfaces.... are there problems with either?  Pics of the failure path and any issues with the surfaces would help diagnose your issue.... excessive clamping force can distort the engine and cause failure as easily not enough force... did the head gasket look evenly clamped when it was removed?
Careful analysis of the parts may lead you to your issues.
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Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2017, 09:14:22 AM »
That'll be Tuesday. The dealership assembled it. APE fresh mill on the head and they both (APE and the dealership) checked the cylinder prior to assembly. Arp head bolts they say were clamped to 60 lbs.
On Tuesday it is apart again and I'll get pics and look for issues. The dealership daid they found nothing. 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 10:06:07 AM by turbojonn »
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2017, 10:20:19 AM »
Sorry about the many typos. Sometimes I use the talk to text or try to one hand it.
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline Rocketgeezer

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2017, 07:26:42 PM »
Hmmm, can a stock length dowel pin be too long for a milled head?
It would had to have been milled a lot, and that is something any eng builder worth a crap would ck, that the dowel will have room enough to not bottom before the gasket is clamped, of course they may have forgot, not bothered, said fuck it, or whatever
The older you get do you notice you start chickening out way before the bike does

Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2017, 08:52:35 PM »
 I went to the shop today. Yesterday via phone one guy said "nothing wrong they could find". Today another guy (name withheld" said that when it left the shop it had proper valve clearance and now it has zero. I told them this is news to me, as the last guy told me zero problem found. Then thd guy says "we just put the head on thay you gave us and maybe something was inside it". Maybe be professional and check the parts you bolt together?! At this point I got the owner and had a seious talk with him.
 They've colectivelly escalted this to a personal issue for me. It's ON. Worst case for me, Im out the rebuild price. Worst case for them, there name will be shi% in this state. My bike is probably the most known Busa in the sate, and people are always asking who did what to it. I'm happy to tell them all about it.
The owner appears to see things my way (THEY needed to check everyting, THEY unboxed APE's fresh parts and stored them in a fuc%ing construction zone, etc).
Oh, they also bzpsgd me 3 hours for installing an APE dummy shaft while the engine was apart (I have the receipt).. This is at most a 10 minute job. They also DESTROYED my carbon fiber front fender.
In order to file a claim I will need to give them opportunity to repair the motor to proper working order. If they can't,


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« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 09:15:22 PM by turbojonn »
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline STUNNAH

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2017, 02:52:32 AM »
Is that the front or rear of the fender???Make sure you keep all paperwork associated with this incident in a folder, just a reminder as I'm sure you have been...
Getting "Blown" is a hell-of-a drug...STUNNAH...

Offline Rocketgeezer

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2017, 08:03:53 AM »
Dam dude, I'm sure it has escalated to the point where they see you coming they lock the door and run for the shitter, don't know what to say that I have not said already, ....... one thing please clarify, you said the charged you 5 grand? what exactly did that include, did you already pay APE and whoever else for the shipped in parts plus the 5K or what........ where I'm going here is, I would be tempted to just get my money back at least whatever labor they charged,  grab my shit and get out of there before they finish the rectal exam you seem to be getting, there are several eng builders across the country that would do a conscientious job and you would get your moneys worth, you mentioned Steve Kechum, what going on there, other than he may be booked up for months....again sorry about mu negative attitude but at this point I would not trust them to wheel my trash to the curb let alone touch my bike,
The older you get do you notice you start chickening out way before the bike does

Offline sportbikeryder

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2017, 08:13:25 AM »
Valve clearance doesn't just go to zero immediately. It usually does decrease over time, but if it really did have clearance,  and all of a sudden has zero, the shims or keepers likely moved. Doubt it happened to all valves though.
Any day on a motorcycle like this that ends just needing parts and labor is a good day.
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4.392, 176.79mph 1/8th mile  6.610, 228.15mph 1/4 mile Tuning

Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2017, 09:12:22 AM »
Hi All. 3k $ is their part. I just erased what I was trying to type. I was typing how "I'm giving them a chance to make it right" and "they asked to tear it down". Trying to find something to type just made me have to think about the situation more and ir ended up basically reinforcing getting my stuff the heck out of their hands. So wierd that this has devolved to this level. This guy has been doing builds around here forever?! His builds are (were) good.
If I get so much as one more inkling of any "shinanagons" I'll put their "rebuild attempt" back on a pallet and get it to Steve. I know if I end up doing this I wont see any of the 3k back (judge would require me to allow the shop to have the chance to make good the deficit) but like I said, it's gotten personal.
The "zero clearance" story that was initially witheld from me, and then followed by basically "maybe something was in the APE head" was total BS and at that point I pretty much switched to bully response mode, which is seek and destroy. Thats when I unloaded on the owner (one of them). The other partial owner is also the shop manager.
The you Sportbikerider. It's nice to have logical backup to help keep these clowns in check.
Oh, almost fotgot, its the front fender. They called me when it happened, and were very upfront with me, and paid for a new one. If it had just been this nobody would ever have known but me. I'm all about trying to forgive and understand. At leat I WAS all that.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 09:24:01 AM by turbojonn »
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!

Offline Rocketgeezer

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2017, 07:14:26 PM »
Getting a strait answer out of those people looks like its going to be tough,  you got the assembled head from APE? or did they set it up, in any case the shop should have checked valve clearance when they degreed the cams or did they not do that?....and as John said for a valve to loose clearance all of a sudden something had to come out of place or break, but how is my question, ..............and I'm not so sure about the small claims court deal, if a reasonable judge heard the whole story a decision in your favor is possible, that provided hiring a attorney did not cost more than you would get back  I mean getting a different story from three different people, wtf is that? if I were the judge that all I would have to hear
The older you get do you notice you start chickening out way before the bike does

Offline fatnslow

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2017, 07:52:46 PM »
Perhaps I am missing something here, but I am fairly confident this has nothing to do with the bottom end / bearings. Bottom ends just hold things together, and ALWAYS make noise and / or fill the oil with shit when there is a major issue. The only thing power relatedwrt bottom end is the extra power consumed by a bearing as it is tightening up around the crank journal, usually identified by a bike that I very difficult to turn over or won't stay running at idle.

The problem could be a head gasket or some other top end issue. Perhaps valves that are bent from hitting pistons due to improper cam timing or moving sprockets, spit shim, head gasket, cracked head piss in coolant into the cyl, etc.

From your description, it may have nothing at all to do with the engine and could be a bad coil or even sparkplug/injector causing it to only run on 3 cyl.
Good point had my motor go south or so I thought. It dropped a cylinder  and shut off during  a pass. Tried to start it and it sounded bad wouldn't  stay running. Brought it to a shop they said it was leaking down in number 3 bad. They said it was most likely  a piston so i bought new motor parts pistons rods everything. Brought it to a guy to build it and I got a call that said the motor was good. I was shocked and said no way but upon looking at the parts it was fine, came to the conclusion  it was either a coil or injector but it definitely  wasn't what the shop said or I thought. John I hope for you it gets  taken care of man and for as little money as possible .

Offline turbojonn

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Re: Fresh 5k $ rebuild= 1000ft and BOOM
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2017, 11:57:30 PM »
Maybe an injector stuck open and flooded the cylinder? Could this cause massive blow by and a dead cylinder, and then be fine on dissambly? Of course, one of the guys said it had zero valve clearance?
The #2 plug (dead cylinder) was super clean, while the other 3 were wet and dark.
RCC turbos rock!!! Rcc- Ultra plenum, case saver, Carillo rods, Wossner pistons, APE springs/tool steel shift shafts, Ferrara valves, ARP studs, lightened and balanced crank, Boostbysmith ecu editor, AMS 1000 with CO2, 475 hp. Mac arm 0-6 over, BST carbon fiber rims. Someday I'm goin' fast!