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Author Topic: Gen1 hard start, cold and hot, not a fuel/battery issue. ignition advance?  (Read 492 times)

Offline Thomas

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I'm trying to trouble shoot hard start problem to no avail.
The bike when cranking sounds like the battery is flat: every single lamp dims, cranking RPM suddenly droops, it sounds like nyeh-nyeh-nyyyeeeeeeeaaaaah-[everything dims]-nyeh-nyyeeeeaaah-[everything dims]. Bolting another battery and extra ~80A 12V power supply in parallel doesn't really help.
*HOWEVER* if I disconnect the injectors the starter turns crazy fast, hooking injectors back and here we go, the engine suddenly becomes hard to start and sounds like the battery is flat.

It really looks like the ECU is sparking too fucking early? I had carbed bikes with non-CDI ignition and a kickstarter, fuck up ignition advance and you'll get precisely that, albeit the bike will kick you and launch you to the moon.

Background / what I've done so far:

I got the bike few years ago, it's a 2002 busa with 32bit ECU. I got it with full titanium exhaust and DNA air filter and semi-flat battery,  I thought the hard starter issue is due to stock ECU and lean mixture topped with old battery. Replaced the battery with a new one (YT12A-BS) and got an OEM air filter. Doing all that slightly alleviated hard start issue but not that much.

I also got the bike with few thick ground wires bolted here and there from the negative battery terminal,  removed all of them and was unable to start the bike since it was cranking sloooowly as hell. New battery cured that.

Ok what I did since then:

0. new spark plugs, sync'ed TB's and adjusted idle / TPS
1. Replaced started motor/starter clutch/starter motor covers. Got all that from the next gen motor.
2. New in-tank fuel pump, trying first the one from 350z and now I run AEM 320 one with dedicated relay/fuse/wires. External fuel filter. AEM fuel pressure regulator. Fuel pressure is rock steady.
3. Went full retard and replaced starter motor "+" and "-" wires with two 4 Ga in parallel for "+" terminal and one 2 Ga for negative. The wire from the "+" battery terminal to starter relay is now 4 Ga.
4. Adjusted valves, everything is within the spec. Compression test shows 14-16 bar across all cylinders.
5. Tried two different ECU's. Tried OEM flash.

Going to check crank shaft position sensor. If it checks OK what should I do next?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 12:30:26 AM by Thomas »
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: Gen1 hard start, cold and hot, not a fuel/battery issue
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2018, 08:38:38 PM »
Check the key for the rotor. Does it roll the same with the coil packs unplugged as it does with the injectors unplugged?
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Gen1 hard start, cold and hot, not a fuel/battery issue
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2018, 11:59:17 PM »
Check the key for the rotor.
What key/rotor? I'm kind of lost. You mean ignition key?

Quote
Does it roll the same with the coil packs unplugged as it does with the injectors unplugged?
Will check, I bet it will crank just fine with the coils disconnected. I'm leaning towards thinking the ignition timing is wrong.

With regard to CKP/CMP sensors: I've ohm-ed crank and camshaft position sensors, all good. Hooked up the scope, peak values are good. RPM while cranking are good: 300rpm with no choke and 350-38 with choke. Removed stator cover and gave visual inspection to the crank sensor, I thought it could have picked lots of magnetic debris but all is good.

So far I'm perplexed by three facts:

- CKP sensor has blue and green wires, while the schematic for the bike shows green and white? WTF
- Blue wire from the CKP sensor goes to green wire in the loom.
- I have no idea where positives terminals for the sensors are but making an educated guess (ohm-ing both terminals to ground and assigning the wire with the lowest value as a "ground" or "negative" terminal) shows that the sensors do not match, in essence zero crossing slopes do not match).
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Gen1 hard start, cold and hot, not a fuel/battery issue
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 12:03:12 AM »
Pic from the scope is attached.
"+" terminals were connected to green wire in the loom for CKP and black/brown wire for the CMP.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Gen1 hard start, cold and hot, not a fuel/battery issue
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2018, 03:02:04 AM »
Does it roll the same with the coil packs unplugged as it does with the injectors unplugged?
Yep, unplug either injectors or spark plugs and starter spins like a sewing machine. Plug all that back and it starts to hesitate. Tried to swap lead from the crank sensor, nothing changed at least it's hard to notice anything.
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Online Nosgsx1300

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after what I went thru with mine spitting and farting and no start. the first thing I tell people is
CHECK the voltage at the coils WHILE CRANKING

somewhere in my harness the coil voltage drops (5th harness on this bike, I think the problem is the RH control)
I ran a 12v keyed to my coils and the bike fires instantly

worth checking
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Offline Thomas

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Thanks for the hint, will check.

Today I also tried to supply the ECU/injectors/coil plugs with a spare battery (leaving main battery for the starter and  fuel pump): I removed the main fuse (the 30A one in the starter relay) and supplied 12V using a wire terminated with a suitable blade connector. Nothing changed.

I have a weird theory: most likely wires in the harness are placed randomly, and some "unlucky" bikes come with ignition coil / injector wires placed extremely close to sensor wires like CKP/TPS/MAP/etc, thus interference with these "weak" signals and interfering with ign timings/whatever.
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Offline Thomas

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I have a weird theory
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/39-hayabusa/249040-problems-start.html#post4171216

Quote
Bought a bone stock, 03 hayabusa with 4100 miles. Ive put 200 miles on it.
Guy told me it needed a starter, but for the money i was paying for it i said no problem.
It lugs or rather spins over weak and slow after its been running only 2 minutes, then randomly you hit the button and it spins fast!

During testing it didnt seem like a starter.
Tested battery, marginal, replaced. Second battery was questionable, so i warranted it and got another. Same problem
Inspected, ohm'd all cables and grounds, cleaned terminals. Same problem.
Tested the stator, ohm'd good, put out 84V
Swapped rectifier with known good, and tested diodes in both. Same problem 13.7 at idle 14.2-14.7 at 5k rpm.
Jumped the starter directly from battery eliminating all wiring, and grounds, same problem.
Removed starter, ohm'd good, cleaned commutator, checked brushes reinstalled, same problem.
Ordered a new OE starter, Same problem.
Took a 1000 CCA Optima Red top. grounded new starters case, and hit positive to post. Same Problem

Video coming soon... 2 neighbors of mine came over after i got the starter on. Same symptoms, they were as dumbfounded as I so we filmed it to show everyone what its doing.
Could the starter clutch be dragging? Timing randomly advanced? Partial Hydrolock? WTF?
Quote
When its cold, the starter spins its ass off and the headlights barely dim at all while its spinning, and fires right up. Ride it for 20 minutes cut it off and try again. It turns slow headlights dimming and almost go dark, and stops after 3-4 rotations. You can feel the exhaust valves open from the Poof at the exhaust so it is turning over.

First thing i did was test the battery. It was borderline so i bought another.
Charged it 8 hours. Fired up fine 4 times in a row while it was cold, rode it 20 minutes, and then the same issue. It turns over slow 2-5 rotations and stops, Headlights dim.

I do my research and some say weak starter, some say bad ground, some say faulty rectifier.

But here is the thing.... If i hit the starter button and it turns over slow, i release it, wait for fuel pump to stop running and hit it again sometimes, very randomly it will spin fast like everything is ok and the bike starts. Cut it off ,hit the starter and its dead again.
Haha the description matches 100% with what I have. I also bought it much cheaper than other bikes were selling for. Same hard start issue. I google and there are similar reports here and there. They are rare but it's these issue is kind of common.

I wonder what is the root cause.
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Offline wildphil69

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The keyway that positions the ignition rotor.
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Offline Thomas

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The keyway that positions the ignition rotor.
I pulled off the stator / cover yesterday, the rotor was bolted down and mounted solidly, it's not loose at all. Do you reckon something could be  wrong there? Like it was assembled with missing key?
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Offline Thomas

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somewhere in my harness the coil voltage drops (5th harness on this bike, I think the problem is the RH control)
I ran a 12v keyed to my coils and the bike fires instantly
Did you pull all of the coil wires from the harness?
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Online Nosgsx1300

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with everything connected, have you tried "jumping" the starter relay
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Offline Oz Booster

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Take 5 deg timing out of your cranking rpm and see if it makes a difference
is it flashed for low rpm firing ?
Also try a timing light and see if the timing is anywhere close to the table degrees at normal operating temp (you will need to extend a coil with a section of car plug leed )
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Offline Thomas

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worth checking
The coils are indeed running fully saturated at low RPM and require few amps while charging. Pressing starter button to trigger the starter relay also result in extra amps. All that adds up to about 3.5v voltage drop.

A pic is attached, the starter "+" lead is unbolted and fuel pump is disconnected, the ECU is running at 120rpm, the scope is connected to the frame and "+" terminal of one of the spark plug connector.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 11:38:57 PM by Thomas »
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Offline Thomas

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with everything connected, have you tried "jumping" the starter relay
did that last year, nothing changed. yesterday tried two batteries in parallel (YT12A-BS and extra YTZ14S with ~6"/15cm 15-20sq.mm wires). It cranks super fast until the ECU starts to spark.
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Offline Thomas

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Take 5 deg timing out of your cranking rpm and see if it makes a difference
Do you know where is the cranking IGN map? I spend few hours yesterday digging into ignition stuff, I found nothing. Probably the ECU uses neutral ignition map for cranking. Not sure tough. I have AEM EMS4 as a back up option, really tempting to switch to it.
is it flashed for low rpm firing ?
No, the FW image is OEM with no mods. The stock ECU starts to trigger spark and injectors at 100 RPM. My crank speed is over 200rpm (~250rpm with no choke IIRC, more than that with choke).

Also try a timing light and see if the timing is anywhere close to the table degrees at normal operating temp (you will need to extend a coil with a section of car plug leed )
Are you using an external timing wheel (if so how do you attach it?) or you peek at starter clutch through the timing inspection hole?
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Offline Oz Booster

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I have used the N timing map , also before all this was readily available have slotted the pickup mount holes to adjust crank sensor timing

Using an adjustable timing light and sighting the tdc mark through the inspection hole
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Offline Thomas

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I have used the N timing map , also before all this was readily available have slotted the pickup mount holes to adjust crank sensor timing
Good to know my quick findings about neutral ign map for cranking are true. Any chance you know units there?

Also it starts at 800 rpm, did you extend the map to lower RPM or simply retarded ignition at 800rpm?
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Offline Thomas

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I have a weird theory: most likely wires in the harness are placed randomly, and some "unlucky" bikes come with ignition coil / injector wires placed extremely close to sensor wires like CKP/TPS/MAP/etc, thus interference with these "weak" signals and interfering with ign timings/whatever.
I opened the wire harness, twisted wires for CKP and CMP sensor, put a heat shrink tubing, and re-layout the ignition coil & injector wires far from the sensor wires. Moved ignition coil supply to a dedicated relay (soon to be, ATM it shares the extra fuel pump relay I put to handle aftermarket fuel pump).
It kind of starts better? not sure tough. what changed is that: it has started to missfire from time to time and I hear distinctive burps of fuel charge exploding in turbo manifold/dump pipe. _Or_ it could be a placebo.

I'm so fucking tired with this bike. This is my fourth GSXR and the most time consuming bike. Back then I learned to remove/re-jet / adjust/put back the carbs on GSXR1100 in minutes and it seemed to be a tedious job. Hayabusa with all its gremlins beats everything I had.
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Offline Thomas

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I have used the N timing map , also before all this was readily available have slotted the pickup mount holes to adjust crank sensor timing
I unified ignition/tps maps using ecueditor, retarded by 1deg 800rpm timing for in gear ign map, then retarded ignition for neutral map timing by 5 and 8 degrees (these  are "ecueditor degrees").
thus I've  tried three flashes:
1. all ign / fuel maps unified, -1deg for 800rpm range for in gear ign maps for low tps
2. same, -5 degrees for neutral map 800rpm
3. same but -8degrees for neutral map 800rpm cell

the results are:
1. hard to say anything, probably idle is smoother but not sure, starts about the same
2. starts a bit more easily with no choke, idle is good. with choke starting is very hard, same as in #1
3. starts harder than with #1 with no choke, with choke backfires consistently through the 1st cyl throttle body (that's right, it's spitting flames and crackles)


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Offline wildphil69

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So Iím getting a little confused here now. Your first post said 02 busa 32bit ecu and rotor exhaust and air filter. Then there was something said about a turbo dump pipe. What bike are we working on here?
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Offline Thomas

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Stock '02 hayabusa with bolt ons. Last year when working with turbo-fuel support for gen1 32bit ecu my bike backfired few times and almost ruined the cases (case saver bushing went in, as well as upgraded starter motor, starter clutch and everything).

At this moment it has 4-1 turbo header and single scroll ~52mm turbo and upgraded fuel system (aem 320 l/h in tank pump, aem FPR, an-6 lines, dedicated relay and wiring). As suggested earlier ignition coil wiring is updated as well.

I had 1000cc injectors and high-flow fuel rail (it's a DIY turbo kit I made last year) but removed all that to troubleshoot hard start issue. Also made a non-intercooled plenum with all short stacks but it's off for testing. It's sized about as an OEM airbox.
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Offline Thomas

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I've accidentally realized that I have MAP (aka IAP) and STPS sensors of gsxr600 k6/k7, the MAP is a direct replacement for the old busa's MAP, and STPS sensor looks and likely ohms like the busa's TPS sensor. Going to replace these.
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Offline firemanjim

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Have you enabled big block cranking in ECU Editor?
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Offline wildphil69

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So to make this clear. This is a stock motor turbo bike?
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Offline Thomas

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long story short: the ecu was loosing sync while cranking as the cam chain jumped one tooth on intake cam when the bike backfired.
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Offline Thomas

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Have you enabled big block cranking in ECU Editor?
Nope, the ECU starts to trigger fuel injectors and ign coils at ca. 100-120RPM (I forgot the exact number), my cranking speed is well over that.

I was trying to run the bike ~1000cc injectors using generic approach with "Ecu Editor" and "fuel pressure" compensation thing. It's pure shit as that way you get no start up injector pulse width correction and also no changes for transient fuelling (that's it, the bike will likely stumble if you pin the throttle). The engine will be massively flooded if you start to start the bike when it's cold outside. No joke.  During such tests the bike backfired and blew the throttle bodies of.

Since then I reversed the ECU FW (fuelling mostly, haven't spent much time with ignition and synchronization stuff) and fixed all that. And had to invest into updated starter motor/starter gear set/covers and also install a case saver bushing, as the pin was already loose. I'm lucky my cases are in one piece.
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