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Author Topic: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?  (Read 1447 times)

Offline uaeproz

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Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« on: August 03, 2019, 10:53:21 PM »
**Posted this thread in other forums, hunting down the ones who attempted or successfully made it happen**

Hi all,

So Pressure Stage.... Did anyone try this? If I'll go the dry sump route, I would add pressure stage cause it doesn't make sense to me otherwise. I received few responses from NRL and others saying I don't need it. While I respect those responses, I just need to know if anyone out there actually tried it?

Dailey built dry sump with pressure stage for Hayabusa but can anyone share the feedback? I need some feedback cause I'm running uphill races (50 degree slope) up to 10 seconds per pass at WOT full load with paddle tires on a Turbo'ed (close to 30 psi) hayabusa powered sandrail so positive oil pressure all the way to a point where I have to empty the catch can I have on the crankcase breather on every pass otherwise, I would overflow.

I checked the manual but I'm not sure if this is correct. If I remove the oil pump, How the scavenge pump shaft would rotate. It looks like the scavenge pump shaft which replaces the water pump shaft is driven by the oil pump shaft? So how this is going to work? Please have a look at the attached page from the manual.

Thanks,

Abdulla

Offline GSXRTURBO1

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2019, 02:39:08 PM »
If NLR gave you advice I would take it. Not many (if any) are better equipped to give advice of that sort.
Thomas

Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2019, 03:55:48 PM »
Original oil pump works fine .... if it has good oil supply , i would leave it to drive the scavenge sections and supply it from the reservoir with a large capacity hose as the pressure pump
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Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 11:48:06 AM »
Original oil pump works fine .... if it has good oil supply , i would leave it to drive the scavenge sections and supply it from the reservoir with a large capacity hose as the pressure pump
If NLR gave you advice I would take it. Not many (if any) are better equipped to give advice of that sort.

NRL reputation precedes them. I just want to explore alternatives. My application is different cause I'm not driving on flat grounds. I run on steep slopes ups and downs so the engine becomes heavily tilted for considerable time that leads the oil, steer far from the oil pickup hence risks of running dry. Scavenge pump coupled with big tank and large diameter hose could resolve the risk of oil movement but so is having a bigger wet sump pan coupled with accusump I think.

The only benefit I see from running scavenge is to create negative so no overflow happens from the crankcase breather but I'm not sure about the stock oil pump capability though, scavenging for long periods could create cavitation? I don't know.

Bill Dailey told me that one of his customers ordered scavenge initially without pressure stage who later on, ordered scavenge with pressure section cause his engine ran dry at certain RPM/load. He also told me that, his customer managed to somehow remove the internal oil pump but I don't know how he managed to remove the internal pump while maintaining the oil pump shaft to rotate in order to turn the scavenge pump shaft.

Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 12:18:40 PM »
The point I'm trying to make here, If I'm going to invest in scavenge pump couple of thousands $$, throwing in couple of hundreds in order to eliminate the risks of failures will have no harm. I just want to do it right from the get go. Better to be safe than sorry. I'm I making some sense here?

Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 04:26:37 PM »
I dont think you could use a standard sump , shallow pan style with a scavenge port or 2  at the rear and fit a scavenge port in the rear of the gearbox
Something like the ARE dry sump with a Nova pump , and minimum -12  from reservoir to pressure pump pickup port
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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 05:40:28 PM »
What you need is my super-secret gyroscopic motor mount pod.

 :whisper:
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Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 10:58:12 PM »
I dont think you could use a standard sump , shallow pan style with a scavenge port or 2  at the rear and fit a scavenge port in the rear of the gearbox
Something like the ARE dry sump with a Nova pump , and minimum -12  from reservoir to pressure pump pickup port

How to fit a port in the rear gearbox? Do you mean scavenge and siphon oil from the crankcase breather port?

What you need is my super-secret gyroscopic motor mount pod.

 :whisper:

Please tell me more  :banana:

Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2019, 04:23:47 PM »
I mean at the point that will be lowest part of the motor when on your steep slope , bore a hole in the lower case
it would need additional material added first  , either welded or quality 2 pack like JB weld to provide enough purchace for the thread
also plan it so it is not at the largest diameter gears so you have good clearances 

First saw the belt drive and thought Supercharger :), do you have so much extra current draw you need the additional 35 amps ?

Also maybe too late in the build, BUT , if your doing mostly steep slopes why not rotate the motor forward 10 even 20 degrees  ?
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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2019, 10:26:03 PM »
Seems you already have plenty of drive options if you want...you already added a full crank driven auxiliary drive system off of the left side of the engine. Plenty of pre engineered belt driven pump options available.
Any day on a motorcycle like this that ends just needing parts and labor is a good day.
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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2019, 10:59:49 PM »
Nice work
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Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2019, 02:35:26 AM »
I mean at the point that will be lowest part of the motor when on your steep slope , bore a hole in the lower case
it would need additional material added first  , either welded or quality 2 pack like JB weld to provide enough purchace for the thread
also plan it so it is not at the largest diameter gears so you have good clearances 

First saw the belt drive and thought Supercharger :), do you have so much extra current draw you need the additional 35 amps ?

Also maybe too late in the build, BUT , if your doing mostly steep slopes why not rotate the motor forward 10 even 20 degrees  ?

Why the extra alternator? I have:
MoTeC M150 ECU
PDM30
GTR R35 ignition coils
Motec Dash c127
MoTeC gear box control paddle shift auxiliary kit (air shifter) with air compressor
Bosch Oil & fuel pressure sensors, oil & water temp sensors, and many more sensors.
Motec 15 buttons keypad
Widebands
Radium Fuel Cell Surge Tank Dual fuel pumps Plus a 3rd pickup pump - 3x Walbro F90000274 E85
G25 turbo T3
ATP DBW throttle body
Electric water pump conversion
Water to air cooling - custom heat exchanger with Electric Water-pump
ID725 primary injectors and Billet Aluminum intake Airbox with Siemens Deka 4 (Deka IV) Secondary Injectors
Carrillo H Beam Rods
Wossner turbo pistons 9:1
50mm Tial Blow Off Valve
Dual 44mm Tial wastegates
HD valve springs
Upgraded gears, Back cut transmission, heat treat
30mm counter shaft
Lock-up clutch
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Oil Blockoff
Crankcase Vent connected to radium catchcan
Adjustable cam sprockets
ARP cylinder studs
Dual front and rear sprocket drive
Racer Edition 40" LED Light Bar
Pair XL Racer Edition LED LIGHTS

Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2019, 02:43:32 AM »
Seems you already have plenty of drive options if you want...you already added a full crank driven auxiliary drive system off of the left side of the engine. Plenty of pre engineered belt driven pump options available.

Very tight space so a lot of work will be involved to add another pulley driven pump but not impossible. I just want to weigh my options. However, I'm inclined toward using the kit offered by Bill Dailey but not sure how can I remove the internal pump while keeping the shaft functional. I have attached some pictures I found online for the internal pump, maybe you have an idea?


Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2019, 03:12:56 AM »
I mean at the point that will be lowest part of the motor when on your steep slope , bore a hole in the lower case
it would need additional material added first  , either welded or quality 2 pack like JB weld to provide enough purchace for the thread
also plan it so it is not at the largest diameter gears so you have good clearances 

First saw the belt drive and thought Supercharger :), do you have so much extra current draw you need the additional 35 amps ?

Also maybe too late in the build, BUT , if your doing mostly steep slopes why not rotate the motor forward 10 even 20 degrees  ?

Why the extra alternator? I have:
MoTeC M150 ECU
PDM30
GTR R35 ignition coils
Motec Dash c127
MoTeC gear box control paddle shift auxiliary kit (air shifter) with air compressor
Bosch Oil & fuel pressure sensors, oil & water temp sensors, and many more sensors.
Motec 15 buttons keypad
Widebands
Radium Fuel Cell Surge Tank Dual fuel pumps Plus a 3rd pickup pump - 3x Walbro F90000274 E85
G25 turbo T3
ATP DBW throttle body
Electric water pump conversion
Water to air cooling - custom heat exchanger with Electric Water-pump
ID725 primary injectors and Billet Aluminum intake Airbox with Siemens Deka 4 (Deka IV) Secondary Injectors
Carrillo H Beam Rods
Wossner turbo pistons 9:1
50mm Tial Blow Off Valve
Dual 44mm Tial wastegates
HD valve springs
Upgraded gears, Back cut transmission, heat treat
30mm counter shaft
Lock-up clutch
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Oil Blockoff
Crankcase Vent connected to radium catchcan
Adjustable cam sprockets
ARP cylinder studs
Dual front and rear sprocket drive
Racer Edition 40" LED Light Bar
Pair XL Racer Edition LED LIGHTS

Some of the items are irrelevant to electrical consumption. I just listed everything I have on this motor so everyone knows what setup I have.

Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2019, 03:16:08 AM »

Online sportbikeryder

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2019, 09:29:28 AM »
I'm still at a loss as to why you don't just use the OEM pump in place, and use connect the feed directly to the pump inlet on the lower case. No modifications to anything, use the pump and the drive shaft as is and drive the extra pumps.

I have made various pumps and driven them from the water pump drive with no issues. First below is an oil only turbocharger return pump. Second is a comboned methanol pump and turbo oil return pump.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:33:33 AM by sportbikeryder »
Any day on a motorcycle like this that ends just needing parts and labor is a good day.
4.82, 158.67mph 1/8th mile 7.350, 200.32mph 1/4 mile Riding

4.392, 176.79mph 1/8th mile  6.610, 228.15mph 1/4 mile Tuning

Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2019, 10:32:15 AM »
The only benefit I see from running scavenge is to create negative so no overflow happens from the crankcase breather but I'm not sure about the stock oil pump capability though, scavenging for long periods could create cavitation? I don't know.

Bill Dailey told me that one of his customers ordered scavenge initially without pressure stage who later on, ordered scavenge with pressure section cause his engine ran dry at certain RPM/load. He also told me that, his customer managed to somehow remove the internal oil pump but I don't know how he managed to remove the internal pump while maintaining the oil pump shaft to rotate in order to turn the scavenge pump shaft.

I'm still at a loss as to why you don't just use the OEM pump in place, and use connect the feed directly to the pump inlet on the lower case. No modifications to anything, use the pump and the drive shaft as is and drive the extra pumps.

I have made various pumps and driven them from the water pump drive with no issues. First below is an oil only turbocharger return pump. Second is a comboned methanol pump and turbo oil return pump.

I'm not saying OEM pump is not good, I'm saying I don't know because no one in the same field of my application have ever tried it that means uncertainty.

I will take my chance and order the pump with pressure stage. Hopefully, I will figure something out. Otherwise, I will have to fabricate something to keep the shaft turning.

Thanks for sharing the pics though and thanking everyone who replied  :beechug:


Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2019, 07:04:02 PM »
What is the best place/spot to retrofit oil vacuum regulator? This one: http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine-vac-VacRegulator.html

Let me narrow it down. I got three suggestions from friends:
- One said, just mount it on the crankcase breather and remove the catchcan
- One said, no, keep the catchcan on the breather, remove the catchcan filter and mount it there.
- One said, make a hole in the cylinder head cover and mount it there.

Which option do you guys recommend? I'm open to more suggestions though.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 07:37:20 PM by uaeproz »

Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2019, 03:38:05 PM »
"I'm not saying OEM pump is not good, I'm saying I don't know because no one in the same field of my application have ever tried it that means uncertainty. "
Your running the same motor with the exact same problems drag racers face , only there oil movement is caused by acceleration , Sportbikerider is one of the go to guys in this area.

Not having used the vac regulator but considering the other requirements of needing to vent in the case of a piston failure , i would tee off the breather , (even fit an aftermarket breather cover and put a larger capacity fitting on it) and fit a check valve on the catch can side of the tee that would allow in the case of crankcase pressure to go toward the catchcan but normaly maintain scavenge pump vacuum   
 
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Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2019, 12:41:00 AM »
"I'm not saying OEM pump is not good, I'm saying I don't know because no one in the same field of my application have ever tried it that means uncertainty. "
Your running the same motor with the exact same problems drag racers face , only there oil movement is caused by acceleration , Sportbikerider is one of the go to guys in this area.

Not having used the vac regulator but considering the other requirements of needing to vent in the case of a piston failure , i would tee off the breather , (even fit an aftermarket breather cover and put a larger capacity fitting on it) and fit a check valve on the catch can side of the tee that would allow in the case of crankcase pressure to go toward the catchcan but normaly maintain scavenge pump vacuum   
 

I'm in total agreement with you when it comes to oil movement but let's not disregard oil temps and viscosity when it comes for endurance races. That completely changes the comparison to how quick the oil moves or the volume of fumes (cavitation).

Can I fit aftermarket breather cover and drill another hole to have dual ports, one port connected to the catch can line with check valve one way goes to catch can and the other port for the vacuum regulator?

I've been reading through the SBD manual for their dry sump setup, just to educate myself more about this motor requirements for dry sump. In the manual (picture attached), they are insisting to remove one of the oil filter feeds (plugged by factory). As I understood from the Hayabusa manual (picture attached also), if this plug is removed, it means bypassing the oil cooler.

Makes me wonder why they want to bypass some of the oil flow that goes to the oil cooler. Any idea?

I will PM Sportbikerider and invite him to share some of his experience.

Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2019, 01:09:33 AM »
What is the best setup for the vacuum regulator considering my setup. Should I tune it to meet the factory oil pressure specs or should I go higher or lower pressure numbers and why?

Offline uaeproz

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Re: Anyone running Dry sump with Pressure Stage?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2019, 10:21:28 AM »
What is the best option from the following options (or if you have an alternative, please share your opinion)?

« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 10:24:50 PM by uaeproz »