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Author Topic: s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)  (Read 9461 times)

Offline dragzooks@indy

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« on: April 03, 2004, 03:51:15 PM »
belive it or not engine has oem pistons (not high comp drop ins) and a NON-ported head and PUMP gas
took a bit of work on the dyno to get it mapped in with the bigger injectors
dont flame me on the air/fuel either
the thing had been on the load control and i was sick of hearing my engine getting drug down and thinking about the lack of oil cooler (sidewinder)



when i get my block back from millenium and the head finished its gonna really rip   :D

Offline Chance

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2004, 05:44:11 PM »
What kind of HP before doing the injector upgrade??

Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2004, 07:08:19 PM »
Damn Mark what's the secret?  That's a shit load of power for a little stocker.
Matt Wright

Offline dragzooks@indy

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2004, 07:28:58 PM »
matt
this is bob
marks registered under fast lane i think

anyway, just read the qualifiers carefully
i only said "oem pistons and a non-ported head and pump gas

assume there are other parts not stock in there   :D
theres actually a few more in it up top
had been on the dyno a long time and it was hot as f$%#
spent most of the time getting the bottom right
its still a little fat up top (12:1)
might go back and tweak it with fresh plugs and a cool engine and try to get over 200hp  
maybe throw some nutec in and see what it does

eric said you mapped kennys with the honda injectors
my map ended up completely negative
as low as -35's and mostly -25 throughout
it was so rich at first it wouldnt rev past 3000 on the dyno without breaking up
i cant wait for my buddy to get back from Atlanta with a new clutch for me
i'm gonna spray the shit out of it now
this was last year with all stock fuel system

300hp + no problem
and my head is done and block will be back this week too!
ot oh :D

Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2004, 08:00:29 PM »
Oh sorry Bob.  I got ya.  I was racking my brain to try to figure out how you got that out of a stocker with cams.  

Kenny's bike wouldn't rev until I put -17 to -25 across the board.  We are doing the same thing as soon as we get the 1507 on the bike.  
Are you going direct port dry into the head?  

I did a little testing today on nitrous jets to get close on the Nos flow rates.
I did it with pounds of nitrous per min.  I got stoned and a crazy headache to get these numbers.  But here are the end products.  I set the bottle at 900psi, and fired it for 15 seconds.  Weighing the bottle before and after.  
I used the NX Iceman solenoid, (It draws less current, and flows more nitrous) Nos, shower head, Earls straight modded turbo nozzle, 31, 33, 35, 41 jets.  should make 150, 180, 200, 250 respectively.  There is a sizable drop if you use the 90 degree turbo nozzle.  125, 155, 175, 225.  This new Ecu should help out a bunch.
Matt Wright

Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2004, 08:02:26 PM »
I want to see 380hp out of a 1507.
Matt Wright

Offline dragzooks@indy

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2004, 08:18:15 PM »
i really want 400hp  :D
but i'll settle for somewhere around 350

my 1507 should make 230-240 range

so i gotta shoot 160 or so to get 400hp

we'll see real soon

i let you know how this little motor takes it
its my test mule
if it melts...dont really care
should have the big one done in the next 2 weeks

Offline dragzooks@indy

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2004, 08:19:41 PM »
i figured the 115ft lbs of torque would have been a dead giveaway :D

you had that stock bore engine right?
curious, what kinda torque did it make?

Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2004, 08:21:31 PM »
I just read what you said, and made an assumptin withthout looking at all the info.
Matt Wright

Offline dragzooks@indy

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2004, 08:22:58 PM »
i know, just messing with ya :D

Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2004, 08:25:14 PM »
That is why I am doing all this nerd shit.  I now have safe maps built to get this started for these injectors on the nitrous set ups I want to try.  I don't want to have to convert it over to a power commander.
Matt Wright

Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2004, 08:28:24 PM »
The 1507 is kenny's.  I can't blow it up.
Matt Wright

Offline dragzooks@indy

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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2004, 08:30:42 PM »
yeah either dry straight into the head or right above each stack
havent gotten that far

want a way to pulse (ramp) more fuel through the injectors as it sprays while the progressive pulses the nos solenoid

otherwise you can really only make a BIG hit all at once
with just a progressive on the nos and the map set for the final % nos you run rich unitl it goes full power

that ecu should do it but until you guys get the bugs worked out tryting to make something work for now

mps' fast fi (full rich box) is cool...but i think it could be made for a few buck easily enough at radio shack

sink the injectors to ground and isolate that side of the circuit with a diode so nothing feedbacks to the ecu and kicks a code or burns it out
unless...the ecu needs to see some feedback to know what the injectors doing

not an electrical engineer, but fairly electrical saavy

whatda think

still would be a hell of a bang all at once

Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2004, 08:46:50 PM »
It will work, you will get enough fuel to keep from burning shit up, but you are looking at a hit that will crush bearings, bend rods and break cranks.  To make something like what you are trying to do work and last it will need a smooth ramp.  That is why you don't hear of these 400hp turbo guys spinning bearings.  What you are doing is great, but if you scatter the thing nitrous motors aren't any farther along than they were before you started.  These new ECU's will be up soon.  I'll get you a copy of the software this week if possible.
Matt Wright

Offline dragzooks@indy

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2004, 08:53:33 PM »
yeah i'd like to play with it and explore its capabilities until the hardware is available

Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2004, 09:12:57 PM »
I'll check, I may be able to give you a copy of what I have.  Mine is sort of generic.  No company badges, etc...
Matt Wright

Offline DarkFalcon

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2004, 09:39:38 AM »
Hey Zooks
What do have going there a 5mm stroker in a stock bore?

Offline DaveO

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2004, 12:53:29 PM »
Drag,

That will prob set a code. The ECM watches the ign/inj pulses and fires a code if it misses 2 consecutive....if my memory is correct. The 99/00 ECM may not catch the injectors from my experience.

Be careful of cylinder pressure with your 84/68 mm combo. I have done a lot of testing with/without spray on several. Your head gasket(obviously) and rods/crank will be at risk.

FYI.....I actually had one customer snap the crank with improper setup/application.

Dave
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Offline dragzooks@indy

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2004, 02:44:44 PM »
yeah its got a little extra leverage in the bottom end  :D  ...hence the abnormally high torque for a stock bore

i had the bottom end together waiting on my block and head so i threw some stuff together to just get a baseline map made for these s2000 injectors

thanks for the input daveo

been building suzukis and spraying the hell out of em since early 90's
as i'm sure you know, its all in the proper set-up and how you build the engine to make sure it lives

as for the injector thing...just tossing some ideas around
trying to make a lot of horspower dry
have made 100 so far

obviously there are advantages to dry
less components
cleaner installation in tight quarters
no aux fuel source to clog/break and lean an engine out
better atomization of extra fuel when sprayed thru high press inj. rather than 6psi thru a fogger
i dont know whether there are necessarily any advantages to making the same hp dry as compared to wet (ie. 150 wet vs. 150 dry)
like is it easier on components?????  dont know

nitrous is still inherently harder on components than a turbo
something about the power cycle of a turbo being really soft

Offline DaveO

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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2004, 03:12:28 PM »
Drag,

I know you have been doin this for a while, and have a VERY good idea of whats going on. That is why I gave some input.

I do NOT have a lot of time on DRY systems. Have done wets 4 ever. Hell I put a tuneup in Dustin's 60" @ the Rock last fall that surprised us ALL on how much power it put down...AND DIDN"T MELT ANYTHING. IT picked up 44 ON THE BACK 1/2 one pass. 84mm motor with wet system.

One thing we did learn...VERY IMPORTANT...THE Schnitz 2nd gen (NCO2?) controller, when using timer delay for retard box. If set to .000 delay, THE FUNCTION IS DEACTIVATED!!!!!!!. Wonder how many motor's have melted because of that. My instructions do not state that. The NEW one's do.......You have to set delay to .001 or longer fo the function to work.

Suggestion on your dry setup...Instead of installing real big injectors adequate for motor/spray @ 43psi, Do the math and find injector size that will cover motor and partial spray, and bump the fuel pressure(during spray) for the remainder. This way your partial throttle tuning should be easier. If injectors are too large, you may not be able to take out enough fuel for down low. I am not sure of the resolution of injectors/Amahd's ECM's.....

You have 9mS MAX to fuel everything at 11k.....

Dave
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Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2004, 03:35:11 PM »
The default resolution for this ECU fuel is .05ms right now for ease of +and - key stroke adjustments.  It can be set as high as .005ms to fine tune if you find it necessary.  Timing is adjustable .25degree over a max of 15 seconds in 1/4 second increments.  The injectors aren't to large.  They are working fairly well down low.  My highest #'s are down low so the thing starts and idle's ok.  (Throttle position 0% and 1000 rpm I have some -8's)
Matt Wright

Offline DaveO

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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2004, 05:07:29 PM »
Matt,

The 340cc injectors are fine for your/drag's motor demands. Approaching 350rwhp the duty cycle will prob be over 90% IMO. This is not desired (obviously) and may cause damage.

My suggestion is to actually use those injectors, and raise the pressure to ensure safe duty cycle's during spray. If you do the math, drag really needs injectors OVER 400cc for 350+rwhp. That is when I am concerned about tunability down low.

The resolution of the ECM is plenty.  Down to .005mS is great. It is the idle demand of prob a mS or less that concerns me. This is because I don't believe that it can cycle correctly with such a small pulsewidth. I thought that their "on time" response was ~.5mS.

This is SPECULATION at this point, I not not tested/confirmed the minimum pulsewidth they can work with. That is one reason why I just bought a new dig scope.

Dave
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Offline MATT_WRIGHT

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s2000 injectors (dyno chart w/air fuel)
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2004, 06:02:23 PM »
As far as the resolution I don't know what the mechanical inertia of these injectors is, but i am guessing 5 thousands of a mili second is far more control than these injectors could respond to.  

The injectors we are using are 368cc.  I am considering upping the fuel pressure later, but you have to understand what I am going for here.  With this new ECU, and some simple injectors we want to make nitrous bikes competitive with the turbo guys.  If it takes a fuel pump too so be it, but I want to make this system as simple as possible.    

Just got a new scope myself.  Fluke 199c and the DC current probe.  I am more concerned about the timing than the fuel, and this is the easiest way to check it.  This hobby is getting awful expensive.
Matt Wright

Offline DaveO

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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2004, 09:37:06 PM »
Matt,

Fluke and Tektronix is mostly what we used, and some HP. Fluke makes nice stuff. My DVM's are all fluke, Tek scopes. Current probes are important, and I use it frequently. Luckily most of my equipment was bought from my employers after depreciation. I am trying out a new small handheld now for dyno use, we'll see how it goes.

About your intent. The 370's should be small enough to tune down low, and marginal for 350rwhp...IMO. I would believe that your limiting factor is going to be the stock fuel pump, as I don't think it can support the volume you need for 350rwhp. Just my two cents...

It's not a hobby, it's an obscession!!!! And a career for the last couple decades.....

Dave
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