12 VS busa.........again?!?!?!

[skid vicious]

easyrider posted this on his 12 board.  what do you guys think?  please don't go over there and start shoutin how the busa is the king of bikes.  i think they feel bad enough that they bought kawis.  we don't have to rub their noses in it.


"The Busa is only the fastest production machine because of the politics.

If I won because the fastest person backed off at the last minute I wouldn't be very satisfied. I think the Busa is original looking, I just think it looks too chunky.

I think Kawasaki has to be very frustrated to back off on their specs to just tie the Busa due to political reasons, when they could have beat the Busa by a good margin. And then to have to put up with all the lame magazines and TV programs that think they know about bikes, to be heralding the Busa as the all time best bike in existance, that would make my stomach turn, knowing I had backed off and let them win due to political pressure.
One thing I can say is that Kawasaki backed off so sportbike riders could have a reasonable chance of maintaining reasonable performance with a reasonable speed limit. If Kawasaki released the 12 the way it was initially designed it would have broken the 200mph barrier and the politicians would have lost it and most likely would have mandated an even lower limit than 186mph.

My last word in the post on this subject is this.
Suzuki had a shot at breaking the 200mph barrier and couldn't do it. Kawasaki did it and then backed off for the greater good of the sportbike community. In my eyes Kawasaki is number 1 with the ZX-12R, hands down.

With Kawasaki backing off, both bikes are tied for performance when stock. It really comes down to the rider. All the TV programs and magazines in the world will not make the Busa #1 by printing articles. The only thing that would have made the Busa #1 would have been to let Kawasaki put out the 12 the way it was designed initially and then beat it head to head, instead of one piston tied behind the 12's back  

In my books the Busa had a cheap win, nothing to be proud off. Busa riders should be proud that they ride one of the 2 fastest bikes in production. To think they have the fastest bike is just a fantasy, plus it is a fantasy that ended in 2000 when the 12 came out with matched specs, and even less of a fantasy when both the 12 and the Busa came out in 2001 with speed limiters to 186mph.

However, if buying a bike because of some article in 1999 that no longer applies due to speed limiters will make you buy a bike that looks a little deformed, then go for it. Just don't say that that Busa is the fastest bike, that fight is over for stock bikes. The only battle is aftermarket, and that is where the rider with the most money and experience wins.

Unless you have owned both bikes Busa and 12, you will not have a reasonable idea of the comparisons, short of looks, which is obviously favouring the 12 in a big way    

I am off my soap box now. Time to take the kids to see Shrek 2, it is raining outside."
_________________

[nemsis]

   

[BCRBusa]

What a whining baby!!!!  

[skid vicious]

i don't think he's whining dude.  he's a pretty stand up guy.  he's just posting his opinion.

[BCRBusa]

i don't think he's whining dude.  he's a pretty stand up guy.  he's just posting his opinion.

I've actually met the guy in person...he lives about 15 miles away from me.....he's a good guy....I'll see him at one of the local shows again soon, and hopefully hook up for a ride..........gotta bug him a bit though!!!!!
Oh yeah....and I like 12's....actually thought of buying one to park next to the Busa

[CPPR BUSA]

let off at the end of the race  lol  that is pretty funny!!   Never seen that happen b fore  

Jus my .02

[skid vicious]

it's amazing how personal people take this shit.  i usually just bust balls.  don't mean nothin by it.  but tell someone their bike is slow or ugly and holy shit it's WW3.  people need to grow some skin and stop being so damn sensitive.

BTW, 12's are fuckin slow ass bikes that look like any other kawi clone out there.  

[oilheadron]

That guy is an idiot. Maybe he can explain exactly what specs Kawa backed off on. You know, the ones that all the '12 owners have upgraded so that they now own all the records? What a moron.

[02SE]

Well, having owned both a ZX-12, and Busa, at the same time, I kept the better machine of the two. Hint, it's not the Kawi. The only thing that was better about the 12, is that the rear tire would last twice as long as the Busa's, then again, that could be considered a downside too.  

FWIW, it sounds like he's whining to me.  

[foresteronw]

That doesn't make any sense what so ever.  Why would they put all this money into product and development to then just pull it back, knowing this would hurt sales.   I am not taking anything away from the 12 at all, I love them.  I just think that what he is saying doesn't make sense, but then again he is entitled to his own opinion.

BUSA RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rumble phish]

Well for the record, I've owned both. Had a '00 ZX12 and I currently scoot on a '01 Busa. I love both bikes. I miss my 12 terribly. I love my Busa and will never give it up. Only solution here is to own both!   There are certain things that the 12 does better than the Busa. There are certain things that the Busa does better than the 12. At the end of the day you've arrived at the same place by way of different roads.

and BTW, the top speed was NEVER regulated by ANY goverment or politician. It was a gentlemans agreement to limit the top speed by the MANUFACTURERS! And the 12 was NEVER detuned. It was released just as KAWI wanted it to be. It was awesome then and it is even better now. It was the CLAIMS Kawi was making in regards as to what the 12 would accomplish that sealed it's fate. When you claim you're going to BEAT the competition and you merely equal it, you're considered a failure. Kawi should have leaned to speak softly and carry a BIG stick! The 12 was NOT a failure in design or engineering, but a failure in MARKETING!

[JW OLDBUSA]

I have a vid of a 99 busa doing 200 past a timer. I don't know if it's legit!?
When did Kawasaki break the 200 mph mark and let off?
I missed that one, But I'm slow.

[skid vicious]

and BTW, the top speed was NEVER regulated by ANY goverment or politician. It was a gentlemans agreement to limit the top speed by the MANUFACTURERS!

um no.  the EU restrcited all bikes to 300KPH.  roughly 186 MPH.  so instead of making a bike tuned for the EU and one ofr the US, they just detuned all of them.

[NiteRunner]

posted by fooskurt

um no. the EU restrcited all bikes to 300KPH. roughly 186 MPH. so instead of making a bike tuned for the EU and one ofr the US, they just detuned all of them.

Actually it WAS a gentlemans agreement. The UK govenment said if the Sport bikes were'nt restricted volountarily they would pass a law. Remember a while back when Triumph said it was going to release a new speed king because it never agreed to the restriction in the first place.

[TurboBlew]

Easyrider is a non riding dork.
Besides the fact he and his lackies have absolutely NO fucking clue how to go over 100mph... they continually post inaccurate and poor assumptions about shit.   Its like Gixxer dot com...for middle aged wannabes.

An example of shit advice on his site......tuning a fuel injected motorcycle with a carburetor jet.

[scotty-12]

Im a member of the 12 site just as I am of this one.

i think they feel bad enough that they bought kawis. we don't have to rub their noses in it.

I highly doubt this.  The 12 like the Busa is a great bike.  As was stated in this thread the 12 is better at some things than the Busa and vice versa.  

I do recall some testing being done by Kawasaki of the 12 before it was released where it was significantly faster than the 00 models public release.  I also read a while back taht the 12 was somewhat detuned(remember this is 4+ years ago now so I forget where I read it).  I think both bikes have capabilities beyond what the mftr is producing/allowing for public sale.

[Gatoracer]

I don't own a 12, but I've ridden with a few guys that do... despite my best efforts   .  You meet up with a guy thats not afraid to ride the damn thing and the bike is plenty fast enough.  I don't own a Busa 'cause I need my ego inflated.  An ego this big is perpetuating anyways!!  sorry... just pokin' a little fun at myself there.  

As far as 'detuned' goes, one has a 12:1 compression ratio, and the other has an 11:1 compression ratio (the Busa).  So who is 'detuned'?

[ZEUS]

Remember the 99 Busa? No 12 or Busa since has equaled the 99's top speed so who is detuned here really, a bike that did not live up to its claims or a bike that has not reached its first year of production top speed!
If you like the Busa then by one and be happy if you like the 12 then by one and be happy but don't by a 12 and then try to point out all the what if's to justify why it fell short and is considered second to the Busa.

[scotty-12]

but don't by a 12 and then try to point out all the what if's to justify why it fell short and is considered second to the Busa.

Don't flatter yourself there.  12 owners dont think their bike is 2nd to the Busa just like Busa guys think theyre not 2nd to the 12.  Both bike are "detuned" (read as limited) now so the issue is dead.  One has more hp and one has more torque...

[Noumenon]

ya, but is anyone buying 12's anymore now that the 10 is out. Didn't happen to the busa when the 1000 came out.

[BusaPwrd]

I think all sportbikes are detuned off the show room floor to purposely boost aftermarket sales. Aftermarket sales is where the money is made on sportbikes, atvs, etc. And yes, the manufacturers do get a nice kick back! So in theory, everything is detuned.

Lets all just be happy we have so many nice sportbikes to choose from. It's all in the eye of the beholder anyways.  

This forum here mainly consists of Busas, so of course we're going to tell you to get one over the 12. The odds would be different if you posted the same question on zx.org.

[TurboBlew]

You are basing this information on what data??
If anything... there are more ZX10s beinig sold than first year GSXR1000s.
If you bought an 04 Busa over the 04 ZX12...well thats your loss.
Clearly Kawi has refined the ZX12 since the A1 model.   Unlike Suzuki which has only added BNG.
The ZX10 is a fast bike.    Not something Id throw a bag on and ride 800miles like the Busa.... but side by side 430lbs/153hp vs 550lbs/160 hp....which would you choose??

ya, but is anyone buying 12's anymore now that the 10 is out. Didn't happen to the busa when the 1000 came out.

[Gatoracer]

Scotty, you might want to save that "one has more hp" crap for the less informed.  The 12 has 2 more hp at the very top end.  if you look at the entire rpm range, the Busa dominates... by almost 10hp in the 6000rpm range.  Same thing with torque, except the Busa maintains a 10ft/lb advantage.

Turbo, either you know the improvements that kawi made to the 12 were to fix what was wrong with it initially... or you don't.  They are now actually making the bike they claimed to 4 years ago.  I could have bought any bike I wanted... I just didn't want to have to drop the engine to get to my spark plugs... which by itself is not big deal, but is indicitive of a much larger issue.

Savannah powersports is the local dealer for both Suzuki and Kawi.  The owner is a friend of mine.  he said he outsells Busa's about 10:1 over 12's, but he repairs (not scheduled maint, but REPAIRS) 12 at about 2:1.  Yea, sounds like my loss all right.  Hey, if ya got a 12, I hope your happy with it.  I'm just saying the odds are against it.  But even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[TurboBlew]

Not for nothing... but just look at an evolution.  Obviously Suzuki addressed MAJOR failures from the 99 model in 2000...but even then still didnt get it correct till 2001.
As for the spark plug comment... well the plugs that come in the ZX12 can last well over 50,000 miles... so why would you need to pull them?

Any moron can look at the 04 offerings and see what they get for the money.

2004 Hayabusa    10,899
Specs
Engine: 1299cc, 4-stroke, four-cylinder, liquid-cooled, DOHC, 16-valve, TSCC
Bore Stroke: 81.0 x 63.0mm
Compression Ratio: 11.0:1
Fuel System: Keihin/Denso Fuel Injection
Lubrication: Wet sump
Ignition: Digital/Transistorized
Transmission: 6-speed, constant mesh
Final Drive: #530 chain
Overall Length: 2140mm (84.3 in.)
Overall Width: 740mm (29.1 in.)
Overall Height: 1155mm (45.5 in.)
Seat Height: 805mm (31.7 in.)
Ground Clearance: 120mm (4.7 in.)
Wheelbase: 1485mm (58.5 in.)
Dry Weight: 217kg (478 lbs.) 218kg (480 lbs.) CA. model
Suspension Front: Inverted telescopic, coil spring, fully adjustable spring preload, 14-way adjustable rebound damping and 13-way adjustable compression damping
Suspension Rear: Link-type, gas/oil damped, fully adjustable spring preload, 22-way adjustable compression & rebound damping
Brakes Front: Dual hydraulic disc
Brakes Rear: Single hydraulic disc
Tires Front: 120/70-ZR-17
Tires Rear: 190/50-ZR-17
Fuel Tank Capacity: 21 liter (5.5 gal.) 19.0 liter (5.0 gal.) CA. model
Color: Blue/Silver, Black/Purple

2004 ZX12R  10,999
Engine: Four-stroke, DOHC, inline four
Displacement: 1,198cc
Starting: Electric
Bore x stroke: 83.0 x 55.4mm
Compression ratio: 12.2:1
Cooling: Liquid
Carburetion: Fuel injection with 46mm throttle bodies and sub throttles
Ignition: Digital
Transmission: Six-speed
Frame: Aluminum monocoque
Rake / trail: 23.5° / 3.9 in.
Suspension, front: 43mm inverted hydraulic telescopic fork with adjustable compression and rebound damping, adjustable spring preload
Suspension, rear: UNI-TRAKŪ system with single shock, adjustable compression and rebound damping, adjustable ride height, and adjustable preload
Wheel travel, front: 4.7 in.
Wheel travel, rear: 5.5 in.
Tire, front: 120/70 x 17 tubeless
Tire, rear: 200/50 x 17 tubeless
Front brake: 320mm dual hydraulic discs
Rear brake: 230 single hydraulic disc
Overall length: 82.1 in.
Overall width: 29.1 in.
Overall height: 47.2 in.
Ground clearance: 4.7 in.
Seat height: 32.3 in.
Dry weight: 463 lbs.
Fuel capacity: 5.0 gal.
Wheelbase: 57.1 in.
Colors: Candy Thunder Blue, Galaxy Silver

Turbo, either you know the improvements that kawi made to the 12 were to fix what was wrong with it initially... or you don't.  They are now actually making the bike they claimed to 4 years ago.  I could have bought any bike I wanted... I just didn't want to have to drop the engine to get to my spark plugs... which by itself is not big deal, but is indicitive of a much larger issue.

[MadRussian]

Here is a good one for you.

Take used 2000 busa with, let's say 10K miles.
Then take same year and millage 12 as well.

Now, try to sell them both and see how close you can get to what it was when new

You will be shoked, I promise