12 VS busa.........again?!?!?!

[Uglyoldrider]

What can I say... since I own both?

I like my 12 better. It's faster, handles better and has been no trouble at all from the day I bought it.

Flame on.

[scotty-12]

Scotty, you might want to save that "one has more hp" crap for the less informed. The 12 has 2 more hp at the very top end. if you look at the entire rpm range, the Busa dominates... by almost 10hp in the 6000rpm range. Same thing with torque, except the Busa maintains a 10ft/lb advantage.

Sounds like sour grapes.  Bottom line:  12-more hp stock and MUCh more hp with a pipe and filter, Busa more Torque all over.

 

Take used 2000 busa with, let's say 10K miles.
Then take same year and millage 12 as well.

Now, try to sell them both and see how close you can get to what it was when new

Very true.  For whatever reason the 12 depreciates quicker.  I did it right though Had a Busa, sold it and bought a newer 12 with 1/2 the miles. for same $.   Not sure Id buy a new 12 at this point b/cof the bad depreciation.

[oilheadron]

Bottom line: 12-more hp stock and MUCh more hp with a pipe and filter, Busa more Torque all over.

Very exciting if you want to win dyno "races".

[ARH]

I can say different.  Ive owned both, first I had a 12, then I got the busa, and the busa is better in EVERY aspect.  Its easier to launch becuase of the torque, its easier on clutches since I dont have to rev the piss out of it to make it 60ft, it runs faster with less mods, and Ive broken less shit way less than with my 12.  I finally sold the 12 but who knows, I like to build anything thats different.....

[scotty-12]

Very exciting if you want to win dyno "races".

It has more hp. Amazing how people who have big egos and small male parts can't just acknowledge that.  Got a suprise for you the zx10 puts out about the same hp and maybe more than a stock Busa.  Why does this upset people?

I can say different. Ive owned both, first I had a 12, then I got the busa, and the busa is better in EVERY aspect. Its easier to launch becuase of the torque, its easier on clutches since I dont have to rev the piss out of it to make it 60ft, it runs faster with less mods, and Ive broken less shit way less than with my 12. I finally sold the 12 but who knows, I like to build anything thats different.....

They are similar but diff.  I think the 12 handles much better and has better ergos and wind protection.  For some reason I can launch the 12 easier than I could the Busa, but then again I had a 2001 and the tranny went clunck when the clutch was let out too quick (A clutch mod would have probably fixed this).  Now The BUsa has more torque don low and pulls harder down low.  Its also more stable feeling at high speed and above 170ish, seems to pull a tad harder than the 12 (IMO).  If you could combine the bikes into one taking the best of each, you'd have a truly awesome machine.

[skid vicious]

form some reason, i had doubts about posting this.  maybe i should have enjoyed a nice cup of shut the fuck up.  good points on both sides though.

[oilheadron]

It has more hp. Amazing how people who have big egos and small male parts can't just acknowledge that. Got a suprise for you the zx10 puts out about the same hp and maybe more than a stock Busa. Why does this upset people?

Unlike you desperate Kawa guys who are clinging with despair to dyno results (because that's all you have), I couldn't care less. My Busa eats similarly-equipped '12s for breakfast and will certainly do the same to a '10.


P.S. This thread started out about '12s being limited or "detuned" from their introduction and being as fast as Busas on the top end anyway. They weren't limited, and they aren't as fast. Period. If you think they were and are, you are either sadly misinformed, or delusional, or an idiot. Good bikes still, but second place in any contest of speed. Get over that.

[scotty-12]

Still can'tjust say-yep, the 12-it has more hp, can you?

And until recebtly, I owned a BUsa, which I have nothing bad to say about-I thoroughly enjoyed it.  

[maxrulez]

trolls

[oilheadron]

Maybe you should a carry a dyno sheet around with you?? Like a security blanket??!!  

[scotty-12]

Maybe you should a carry a dyno sheet around with you?? Like a security blanket??!!

  Now that made me laugh-thanks,  B&W or color coded?

[Todd]

and BTW, the top speed was NEVER regulated by ANY goverment or politician. It was a gentlemans agreement to limit the top speed by the MANUFACTURERS! And the 12 was NEVER detuned. It was released just as KAWI wanted it to be. It was awesome then and it is even better now. It was the CLAIMS Kawi was making in regards as to what the 12 would accomplish that sealed it's fate. When you claim you're going to BEAT the competition and you merely equal it, you're considered a failure. Kawi should have leaned to speak softly and carry a BIG stick! The 12 was NOT a failure in design or engineering, but a failure in MARKETING!

Just a few items of note:

The gentleman's agreement to limit didn't take effect until 2001.

The head to head tests of 2000 clearly demonstrate a consistant winner - time and time again.

Even the unrestricted head to head test with 2001 models showed the same results.

I believe Kaw probably did have a prototype at one time that did make more HP but was detuned due to rods flying out of the case. (my own opinion based on claims from early tests and blowups from the first test models)

Whatever the case - it seems damn silly to run around squawking about what the bike should have, could have or would have been  .... BUT NEVER WAS[/u].  Using performance parameters never released, never sold but supposedly designed as some kind of "bench mark"?!  WTF is that?   They tried to do the same with the pre production Gadson run that he could never repeat on any customer 12. (Ran 10's on customer model)

They will be forever bitter.  Mark my words.  

And lastly, a little something for my friend Ron - the rest of the story:  





Haybusa vs. ZX-12 head to head worldwide:
http://myweb.cableone.net/toddshelton/testdata.html

[BlueCat!]

This old subject again. Which is fastest? Who cares? All bikes are knobbled now anyway so the big deal is potential after add ons. I think the busa has better potential, and better reliability.

The 12 is a good bike, but I can't get into it the same way I do with other bikes, and I've really, really tried. Both bikes parked in a parking lot, and the busa wins before either moves. The busa is different. The 12 is the alternative. In my book the choice is the busa for all the above reasons.

After these two the other bikes are the apples to these oranges. My second bike would be either another busa or something else that does something different.

Kawasaki made a great bike, (eventually), but forgot to give it any soul.

[lesbusa]

Interesting post. The guy forgot to mention a couple of things.

First, if this imaginary 200mph ZX12 was released Suzuki would have responded the following year. Kawasaki was the one that sat on models untill people forgot they made sportbikes, ZX7, ZX6, ZX11, Ninja 250, Ninja 500. How long were they out unchanged? The only reason the Busa is still the same is that it actually sells.....

Second, all the people I know that have had both bikes and sold one of them sold the ZX12. The advantages that the 12 have, weight, shorter wheelbase don't seem to matter for the people who sold them. Notice I didn't say power. In my opinion being up 10 bhp from 9.5k-12k does not offset being down 5-10 bhp from idle - 9.5k and having less torque than the Busa. I think the busa wins due to its broad spread of power.

[THEMOTORHEAD]

SO STUPID
 first off with that body stye of the 12 it would have to make alot more hp to break 200 mph
second i think the 12 made less hp innitially
then the busa came out
kaw then delayed release for6 months to retune it and come out with the 12 with alittle more hp.
though still not even close to a 200 mph machine.
but all that aside
because i could care
the 12 will neve ever be what the busa is
"A LEGEND"
AND I PREDICTED IT BACK IN LATE 99"

[rumble phish]

and BTW, the top speed was NEVER regulated by ANY goverment or politician. It was a gentlemans agreement to limit the top speed by the MANUFACTURERS! And the 12 was NEVER detuned. It was released just as KAWI wanted it to be. It was awesome then and it is even better now. It was the CLAIMS Kawi was making in regards as to what the 12 would accomplish that sealed it's fate. When you claim you're going to BEAT the competition and you merely equal it, you're considered a failure. Kawi should have leaned to speak softly and carry a BIG stick! The 12 was NOT a failure in design or engineering, but a failure in MARKETING!

Just a few items of note:

The gentleman's agreement to limit didn't take effect until 2001.

The head to head tests of 2000 clearly demonstrate a consistant winner - time and time again.

Even the unrestricted head to head test with 2001 models showed the same results.

I believe Kaw probably did have a prototype at one time that did make more HP but was detuned due to rods flying out of the case. (my own opinion based on claims from early tests and blowups from the first test models)

Whatever the case - it seems damn silly to run around squawking about what the bike should have, could have or would have been  .... BUT NEVER WAS[/u].  Using performance parameters never released, never sold but supposedly designed as some kind of "bench mark"?!  WTF is that?   They tried to do the same with the pre production Gadson run that he could never repeat on any customer 12. (Ran 10's on customer model)

They will be forever bitter.  Mark my words.  

And lastly, a little something for my friend Ron - the rest of the story:  





Haybusa vs. ZX-12 head to head worldwide:
http://myweb.cableone.net/toddshelton/testdata.html

Exactly my point! The 12 was/is a great bike, but it never BEAT the Busa. I've owned both, and currently ride a 2001 Busa. I've loved both, but as BlueCat! stated one has more SOUL than the other. The 12 is an awesome bike, the Busa is just a little more so.   Thanks for the validation Todd (although I'm not sure if you meant to or not)

[Todd]

Just adding to your interesting comments.  

We should also remember that the 12 was originally designed to blast the Blackbird.  I'm sure it did that easily with a more conservative tune.

Then Suzuki dropped the Busa bombshell - unannounced -  and sent Kaw running to the parts bin.  They were caught completely off guard.  They had to hotrod it somewhat to up the power.  I believe they found the limit needed but had to back off due to reliability problems.  

Aerodynamics:  We all know about the Busa's advantage, but how many know this? :

Eight years ago, when Kawasaki engineers were designing the
original replacement for the ZX-11 (ZX-12R), the prototype resulting from
wind tunnel testing and extensive modifications was almost a carbon copy
of the Hayabusa. It was probably the best design they had ever built from
an aerodynamic standpoint. Only Kawasaki's world product planners figured
 it was so ugly it would not sell. We all know what's happened since then.   - Cycle Canada

 

The fact is - if it were not for the release of the Busa, the 12 wouldn't have been as good as it ended up being after the last minute scramble to catch up.  

[8urbusa]

dude fuck busas !!!! they look like stinkbugs with a nose like gonzo !!!all hale the ZX12R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gottageta9]

And that would be your first post?

[WayneE]

Maybe you should a carry a dyno sheet around with you?? Like a security blanket??!!

  Now that made me laugh-thanks,  B&W or color coded?

Don't laugh.  I met a guy at the local bike hangout with a turbo/sprayed ZX12 sporting a HUGE wheelie bar.  Guy carried around his dyno sheet.  Never raced the bike, just liked riding it and dynoing it.  

[foresteronw]

One quick observation I have made in the past eight months that I have owned a Hayabusa.  I have noticed that whenever someone doesn't like a Busa the only thing they seem to be able to come up with for a put down is one of the three following things; 1. It's ugly, 2.  It's fat, or 3.  It can't handle for shit.

Not once have I had anyone tell me that it is slow or that their bike is faster(well until recently with a couple of the new litre bikes, but that was fixed pretty quick or they didn't want to race)

[maxrulez]

Every 12 forum i use to hang on when I HAD one was nothing but a buncha damn cry babies and all they ever did was throw paper specs at you not much action though, just talk.  They are in their own little world of envy.

[Randor-B]

Todd wrote:
Eight years ago, when Kawasaki engineers were designing the
original replacement for the ZX-11 (ZX-12R), the prototype resulting from
wind tunnel testing and extensive modifications was almost a carbon copy
of the Hayabusa. It was probably the best design they had ever built from
an aerodynamic standpoint. Only Kawasaki's world product planners figured it was so ugly it would not sell. We all know what's happened since then.  

Yet another ' ZX-12r is better because of some blueprint in a file cabinet' arguement.......

[WayneE]

I generally have to keep my mouth shut on the 12 vs. Busa thing.  I only have 1 friend with a ZX12 and he runs 8s at the track and 200+ at Maxton  

[scotty-12]

Maybe I need a dyno sheet then.  

I took both the Busa and 12 to roadracing courses and I was much more confident on the 12.  Both have their advantages and no matter what people try and say to differentiate they are very similar.  

I have found that the Busa was easier to work on.  People exaggerate how hard the 12 is to access-its not impossible, but it does make you appreciate the Busa.