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Author Topic: Air Box Mod  (Read 18242 times)

Offline Phantom13

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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2005, 02:37:08 PM »
bdorf94- Instead of being a typical member on this site and fling mud....why not prove me wrong? Surely that would deal a larger blow than simply proving you don't know dick about the issue.

Offline CID

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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2005, 02:41:06 PM »
Phantom...what Dennis is saying in his ever so, humble way is that you shouldn't talk to BUSA owners asking for BUSA knowledge.

You're a 12 guy...great.  When somebody asks about how to MOD a 12, jump on it.

If you want to talk about racing and bullshit fine, go get into it, but leave the 'theory' 'I think' kind of shit at home.

The motor guys around here are the fastest on the planet and they KNOW BUSAS inside and out...let them answer the questions from new BUSA owners..PLEASE.

Offline bdorf94

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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2005, 02:44:20 PM »
Quote from: Phantom12
bdorf94- Instead of being a typical member on this site and fling mud....why not prove me wrong? Surely that would deal a larger blow than simply proving you don't know dick about the issue.


Look, jackass....you've been a dick since you started posting.  Look at the top of this thread:  "So you had a harley before this? Let me guess...this is your first real sportbike? You don't go over 150mph? Why did you get the Hayabusa? Hell, any new 600 can do over 150mph easy in stock trim. Wait Wait Wait....lemme guess.....BECAUSE IT'S A "HAYABUSA"!!!
Sorry if I sound sorta rude, but I use to sell bikes and I'd get these middle aged men come in with either dirtbike or Harley experience and buy Hayabusa's........ 6 months later the bike is wrecked or they sold it because it was just a fad. Most of the time the power of the bike intimidates them thus keeping them from being able to learn on the bike."

Who gives a fuck WHY he bought it?  It's the people like you that piss most individuals off.  Everybody is out there, riding their bikes, enjoying whatever it is that makes them happy.  You, along with other individuals on this site, seem to find it necessary to chime in and rip all over other people's tastes/actions/thoughts/opinions.  It's ridiculous.  Yeah, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but there's no reason to bitch, just because you don't agree with it.....to each his own.  This is a Hayabusa board....he's asking a Hayabusa question....let a Hayabusa pro answer it....if you wanna step in and speak from your own experience, fine, but there's no excuse for stating your opinion/"theory" as fact.

Offline jjmetheny

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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2005, 03:21:23 PM »
Quote
Explain how less velocity and more volume is going to produce more pressure in the airbox than more velocity and less volume.


Ask your old lady when she feels more pressure in her box. When I'm sticking my dick in her nice and slow or when your slamming away with your littleboy toy :shock:
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Offline nemsis

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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2005, 03:34:35 PM »
Quote from: Phantom12
Explain to me how a greater amount of slower moving air can pressurize an airbox more so than a lesser amount of air moving much faster at the same speed.

The way I see it is like this....

I can fill up a bucket faster by using the garden hose effect with my thumb than if I didn't. Correct? Not only that..but once the bucket is filled....I can still create more pressure in the bucket with my thumb over the hose than not.


It may be simple...but it's the same concept. More velocity less volume creates pressure and flows more water than more volume and less velocity. At least this is what my experiment lead me to believe.



Phantom why don't you test your own theory get a watch and a bucket and a hose and time it and then post back with your results.
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Offline Phantom13

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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2005, 03:50:05 PM »
Nemsis- I did on another thread. Filled the bucked up 2 seconds faster with more velocity less volume.

Not only that...You'd assume that the higher velocity would build more pressure at high speed when trying to pressurize the box. When I shot the higher velocity water into the bucket of water...it pushed the water much more than with more volume less velocity. Wouldn't that be key when trying to pressurize an airbox? Pushing more air into a pressurized box would require FORCE not volume...correct? Velocity is the force in which the substance is being moved.

Offline Busa@11K

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« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2005, 04:23:36 PM »
Quote from: Randor-B
Quote from: Phantom12

The way I see it is like this....

I can fill up a bucket faster by using the garden hose effect with my thumb than if I didn't. Correct?


No, that is not correct. The bucket will fill at the same rate whether you have your thumb over it (ventury effect) or not. If you want to fill the bucket faster, you have to open the spicket more (more volume).


Actually, it would probably fill up just a little slower because by putting your thumb over the end of the hose you have introduced added restriction to the flow.  Anytime there is added restriction, there is also a decrease in mass flow ... even though it looks like it remained the same with increased velocity.  Pressure drops are not free!!
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline Busa@11K

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« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2005, 04:24:54 PM »
Quote from: Phantom12
Nemsis- I did on another thread. Filled the bucked up 2 seconds faster with more velocity less volume.


How can you fill up a fixed volume (bucket) with less volume per time (mass)?  Your experiment was flawed! :yes:

See my post above.
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline Busa@11K

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« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2005, 04:29:40 PM »
Quote from: Phantom12
You say that more velocity will only end up being sucked in by the motor faster...correct? I disagree... air traveling into the airbox will flow MORE air that the motor can draw in if it's moving into the airbox faster before the motor can draw it in....hence pressurizing the airbox.


Engineers play with the design of the intake systems to take advantage of velocity pulses and the pressure waves from the intake valve train causes velocity pulses in the intake system over the engine’s PRM range.

But on a basic level, if you decrease the intake track size you increase velocity, but you also increase pressure drop.  Somewhere there is an optimum balance between all the variables.
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline Randor-B

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« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2005, 05:38:36 PM »
Quote from: Busa@11K
Quote from: Randor-B

No, that is not correct. The bucket will fill at the same rate whether you have your thumb over it (ventury effect) or not. If you want to fill the bucket faster, you have to open the spicket more (more volume).


Actually, it would probably fill up just a little slower because by putting your thumb over the end of the hose you have introduced added restriction to the flow.  Anytime there is added restriction, there is also a decrease in mass flow ... even though it looks like it remained the same with increased velocity.  Pressure drops are not free!!


Yes, you are correct. But we'll leave the hairsplitting to Phantom12. :wink:

Offline Todd

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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2005, 06:00:56 PM »
Quote from: THEMOTORHEAD
Quote from: Phantom12
geared for 170mph!!! HOly shit, you must hate the highway.....90mph at 9,000 rpm...lol! Well, I'm sure it puckers your butthole down low under 150mph.

As for the airbox mod....theoretically...it should help the bike at lower speeds a lot. At low speeds it's about volume of air not velocity. The bike isn't getting any ram air boost at low speeds, so it's pointless to have the smaller opening to increase velocity. It would be more benificial to have a larger opening that will allow more volume of air.

Am I wrong?
YER STUPID
AT LOW SPEEDS ITS ALL ABOUT VELOCITY
THATS WHY CARS HAVE LONG RUNNERS FOR GOOD TORQUE AND ATOMIZATION OF THE FUEL
AT HIGH SPEED/RPM ITS ALL ABOUT VOLUME
YOU HAVE IT TOTALLY BACKWARDS
TRY SCHOOLIN THE 12 GUYS ABOUT THAT SHIT :roll:  :roll:  :roll:



This kid is dumb as a box o' rocks. :duh:



I can't believe you guys are still toying with this idiot.  :lol:

Keeps spewing the same tired bullshit day after day after day.  You never miss a thing even when you're gone.  :roll:
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Offline FullTilt

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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2005, 06:16:39 PM »
Obviously California and other metropolitan areas with traffic problems could solve the traffic jam problem by narrowing the freeways down from five lanes to one or two lanes. They'd also be able to raise the speed limit since so many more cars would then be flowing through the concrete artery at much greater velocity.

Traffic planners are morons for thinking additional slow moving lanes would help things. Narrow those highways and watch MORE cars go through at a FASTER pace.

Damn, brilliant.
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Offline soupy

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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2005, 06:33:54 PM »
pressure is defined as resistance to flow.  its simple....more pressure will net less flow.  as previously explained many times...your bucket theory is fucked!!
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Offline fstbusa

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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2005, 07:07:15 PM »
read up on bernoulli's principle


it will explain alot.
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Offline Twisted

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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2005, 10:41:26 PM »
Quote from: THEMOTORHEAD
Quote from: Phantom12
geared for 170mph!!! HOly shit, you must hate the highway.....90mph at 9,000 rpm...lol! Well, I'm sure it puckers your butthole down low under 150mph.

As for the airbox mod....theoretically...it should help the bike at lower speeds a lot. At low speeds it's about volume of air not velocity. The bike isn't getting any ram air boost at low speeds, so it's pointless to have the smaller opening to increase velocity. It would be more benificial to have a larger opening that will allow more volume of air.

Am I wrong?
YER STUPID
AT LOW SPEEDS ITS ALL ABOUT VELOCITY
THATS WHY CARS HAVE LONG RUNNERS FOR GOOD TORQUE AND ATOMIZATION OF THE FUEL
AT HIGH SPEED/RPM ITS ALL ABOUT VOLUME
YOU HAVE IT TOTALLY BACKWARDS
TRY SCHOOLIN THE 12 GUYS ABOUT THAT SHIT :roll:  :roll:  :roll:



ram air is a relatively complicated issue with the kaw guys, I mean have you ever checked out the ram air design on the 12, you think thats bad how fast do you think the yammiha guys are scratching their heads?

Offline SLEEPERBUSA

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« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2005, 12:04:55 AM »
I did real world testing.
I gained 5mph on top end with a small box mod.
Back to back testing.
No smoke and mirrors here!
208.6mph/ Texas Mile. 10/24/2010

Offline Busa@11K

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« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2005, 10:26:41 AM »
Quote from: Twisted
ram air is a relatively complicated issue with the kaw guys, I mean have you ever checked out the ram air design on the 12, you think thats bad how fast do you think the yammiha guys are scratching their heads?


One thing I'll give Kawasaki is that they were the first to put real ram-air on a production motorcycle ... the 1990 ZX-11.
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline Busa@11K

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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2005, 10:28:53 AM »
Quote from: soupy
pressure is defined as resistance to flow.  its simple....more pressure will net less flow.  as previously explained many times...your bucket theory is fucked!!


Actually, it should be "more pressure drop" will net less flow.

More pressure on a fixed resistance to flow will result in an increase of flow.
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline Phantom13

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« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2005, 04:53:14 PM »
Whatever guys, I still don't get it and I'm begining to care less and less about it every min....for the sake of peace I'll just say, "Ok, I'm wrong, you're right"

Offline SLEEPERBUSA

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« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2005, 05:53:50 PM »
Quote from: SLEEPERBUSA
I did real world testing.
I gained 5mph on top end with a small box mod.
Back to back testing.
No smoke and mirrors here!


Damn Dude.
You ask for real world testing.
I told you that I DID real world testing and you ignore the post.

You must not REALLY be interested in it?
208.6mph/ Texas Mile. 10/24/2010

Offline RdRcr150

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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2005, 09:16:21 PM »
Just to create confusion..."As velocity increases, pressure decreases" venturi law of airflow.

Offline HockeyPuck

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« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2005, 02:59:10 PM »
I am not a mechanic, but I like to learn as much about my bike as I can, so bear with me if I asked some dumb questions.
1) I heard that if you do the airbox mod the bike/airbox will be a lot louder.  Is it unbearable noise?
2) I'm planning on putting on an exhaust and PC.  If I dial in the PC will I have to change the TPS (assuming I did the air box mod).
3) I am more of a 1/4 mile fast rider as opposed to a top end fast guy.  Would you still recommend the airbox mod?

Thanks to everyone.

Offline tinmann8

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« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2005, 11:09:33 PM »
Quote from: THEMOTORHEAD
PHANTOM
SHUT THE FUCK UP




Just should have said it sooner  :roll:

Offline Quijinn

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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2005, 09:54:17 PM »
engine = air pump. Air being pulled in is slow at lower rpms. Velocity is the speed of something moveing, in this case air. Volume is the amout of something required to full a area. This case the intake/cylender. Cfm is the volume of air moveing. For positive preassure to be created, the volume of air in has to be greater then the volume being used. For the motor to rev faster the velocity has to be greater then the air being consumed. If a motor use's 200 cfm but 250 cfm is being forced in then there would be positive preassure. Air would be waiting to enter. If a motor needs 200 cfm and 200 cfm is there but the speed at which it flows is only = to the speed the motor is useing it then the rpms will not raise. For the motor to increase in rpm more air has to be there each time the cycle is completed. Let me try to give a example.

Lets say a motor needs 400 cfm at 6k rpm. THe TB will give 600 cfm at 6k rpm. At 1500 rpm the motor might need 90 cfm. We know the TB can offer a full 400 cfm. When you go WOT the motor bogs and slows why?
Volocity, see even though there is sufficent volume, the air is moveing to slow for the pump to pull it in. Each time the motor takes a breath air has to fill the void created. If it fills it faster then the motor needs it then it will spin faster due to more air/fuel charge. If it does not fill the void fast enough (low volocity) then the motor will starve on the next cycle. This cause's the rpm to fall, stay the same, or rise very slow. Its the same reason the motor will stop revving at 6k rpm, when it hits the 400cfm that can be flowed no more air is there.

A engine will rev till it blows it can get enough volume and volocity. It's nature is to consume every once of air it can get. It's why the motor stops reving at part throttle when you go down the road at 60. It has the volocity to fill the void, but not the volume to increase it.

Volume is the amount of air needed. Volocity is the rate of movement. Both are needed always. At higher rpm Volocity is naturale due to the air stream already moveing, so Volume becomes the limiting factor. At low speed the Volume is there, but the volocity is lacking. That is the delemia that has been plauging High performace N/A motors for decades. Turbos fix all :)


As far as filling a bucket. Only so much volume can come out of the hose, you increase the velocity, you added a restriction to the flow. You limited the volume with the same restriction. Odds are it was a different water mark, or the valve was opened a bit more in one test vs another. The way you did it was not a rw test, to many variables. Any factor, could add subtract 2 seconds. A small crimp in the hose you didnt see would add to it.

In fact you proved why velocity and volume are so imporant in your own test. The water got to the bucket from the nossle faster, but it was less of it. The stream got thinner, but moved faster. In the case of a motor that is ok, because it needs alot less at lower rpm, but to accelerate it has to get there shit loads faster.  Hope this helps. Mark
Hi my name is Mark and I am a Bikeaholic.     Be carefull how fast you race through life, the finish line is death, and the trophy is a headstone.  Our perspective is how we judge our lives, to judge others we need a little change in our perspective.

Offline HayaBusa Knight

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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2005, 11:57:00 PM »
Quote from: Phantom12

Most of the time the power of the bike intimidates them thus keeping them from being able to learn on the bike.

This is why it's better to start smaller and work your way up. Not because we want you to go slower, but because it's easier to build up your skills on a smaller more forgiving machine that can brake quicker and manuver easier.  

Do yourself a favor and go to the drag strip and run your bike....work on learning how to launch better and cut quicker R/T's and E.T.'s. More experience and skill is FREE.....and will prove to be more benificial than more power through mods.


My Second bike was another YAMAHA, had a nick name called a DEATH MACHINE. RD 400F Daytona Special. Alot of people were just that... Intimidated, alot were people who abused it or did not take it seriously or acted stupid, most got rid of them cause they feared it, alot got killed on them cause they did not respect the machine. Me I was told I would never make it to 21. Hmmmm I am 44 now LOL!!! I rode mine hard but NEVER EVER did something stupid or tried anything stupid, Anything I did be it speed ect.. I made sure I could handle it and was confident I could. One spec of doubt could be the first and last. But I did not go out speeding every second I was on it, I enjoyed riding it, be it speed limit or 5 to 15 over it or at 100 or so here and their. But generally I just love to ride. Would go to the beach and drive most of the day up and own the beach @10mph with just flip flops and shorts on. and time to get off beach put a shirt on and my helmet and go home or go cruising. I practacly lived on the bike. was 18 when I got it. the other bike before it was a DT 250. Lived on that one too but wanted the RD 400.


I saw a RD 400F a few weeks ago :( wanted to chase the guy down and buy it just to have it again(loved that BIKE).