Who uses the rear brake and why?

[02SE]

Altec wrote:

Front brakes only account for 100% of your stoppnig ability if you either (a) negate the fact that you have a rear break or (b) it is the only brake you apply at that point in time.

Or (c) you apply the front brake hard enough that the rear tire is in the air, which is common in Roadracing.  

The FACT is, the front brake is only accountable for 80% of the total stopping power of the motorcycle. The rear the remaining 20%.

Not always, see above.

[WWJD]

even the instructors at the classes I have taken [msf and track] have pounded into my head the front break is your only friend.

I just went through the MSF class this past fall and the only thing they evangelized was using the front and rear in tandem.  Maybe the Advanced MSF teaches something different???  I am considering becoming an instructor which is why I know this / was there.

Yes class teaches you the BASICS... my instructors, OFF the record gave me their real poop.  but they are not aloud to discuss THIER PERSONAL HABITS AND TECHNIQUES in class.

[eddie j]

I use the rear brake all the time for street riding-I am not a road racer-but plan on doing a track day this summer for my 1st time. My rear brake comes in handy in various situations mostly which are slow speed and normal street riding. But I have smoked the rear tire while braking very hard with the front brakes many times and not gone down-as a matter of fact just last week I was riding along on a 2-lane rural highway and a girl(who looked like she was drugged or something) turned smack dab in front of me. She was coming from opposite direction and turned left. I slid the rear about 40 feet and grabbed as much front as I could w/o doing a stoppie then went around her after I saw no other cars behind her. I think that in that case the rear brake helped me especially since it was on my son's FZR-600 which is a lot lighter and shorter wheelbase than my Busa. I made a u-turn and followed that girl into a store parking lot and asked her if she saw me but her eyes were half closed and I swear I think that bitch was on drugs. She did say she was sorry but I don't think she meant it.

[Pete]

Threshold braking is an accident avoidance skill. And there is no arguing that cars turning left in front of us are our biggest risks. It's a fact

If you ain't overtaking and you ain't riding too close then a car turning left should be no risk to you at all.

In our highway code it says not to overtake near a junction, so if you are riding to the code, you wouldn't be in the situation where a vehicle turns left (right for us in the UK) as you try to pass.

[eddie j]

he means oncoming cars turning left in which case you are meeting them. This really pisses me off cause a woman turned left INTO my dad and mom who was his passenger on his Harley FLH which had 4 headlights and this woman who ran over them and almost killed them says she "just did not see them". All she got was a small fine for failure to yield. That happened in 1983 I know it was a long time ago but still stays in my mind every time I go riding.  People who say they just don't see motorcycles should be banned from ever driving. cause they are morons.

[Busa]

Good post Kirk.  But in slippery conditions you need balance.  I guarantee I can stop faster with two wheels than you can with only the front on sandy or other slippery conditions... hell, all you guys know that anyway... never mind.

[TurboBlew]

I use my back brake.... to spool the turbo up quicker on rollons....lol.


Kirk... if you are approaching corners nearly carrying the back tire in the air..... how do get on the gas early for the exit?
Yes.... you can get on the binders hard... but you can transfer your weight over the back of the tire by straightening your arms... giving the rear wheel sufficient contact patch to get back on the gas again.

[Busa Quick]

I ride dirt bike and the Hayabusa and I use both brakes. I rely on the power of the front and only drag the rear brake. Most of the roads around here I can not do a stoppy on even if I am sitting on the edge of the tank because the front locks and tries to take a trip.  The rear brake is a lot easier to use on the dirt bike compared to the busa mostly because of the lighter weight and forgiveness of dirt.  I can do a stoppy on the dirt bike "YZ426" over and over but, haven't  got the Busa to do it yet.


Mark

[L.A. Don]

Moto GP and AMA racers use them under hard braking.

[SuperGrizz]

Kirk, I'm with ya. I use my rear brake only when I'm on a slight incline at a light, or, since my fronts are really grabby (I like 'em that way), I sometimes tap the rear brake to turn on the light and warn off tailgaters (not that it happens often). The MSF course teaches it's like 70% of your braking power comes from the front brakes, but that's hardly true on sport bikes, with more weight transfer towards the front when braking (largely because of your riding position). So, for us, it's about 90/10.

If you're of great riding skill (no offense, but better than 99% of us), you can likely use the rear brake to some efficiency, but in all likelihood, the advantage you could get from using it is greatly overshadowed by the potential to end up a road pancake.

Grizz

PS: Ever seen those choppers that lack a front brake? Scare the crap out of me!

[Tafnar]

Iv kept my toes away from the rear brake within my 4yrs of street riding. I do not want to get a bad habit and trying to rely on my rear brake for slowing. Even if im just lightly using it when shit hits the fan and i go to slightly toe down ill probly jam it instead pitching me low or high.

When I can afford a track only bike ill goto the schools and learn than. But till ill just keep with my front brake.

[Kirk]

Good discussion, guys.

Just to clear up a little terminology, the term "trail braking" has nothing to do with the use of the rear brake. Trail braking is braking that continues past your turn in point. You are "trailing" off the (front) brakes as your front tire loads shift from maximum braking to maximum cornering. In between the two, there is an opportunity for some residual braking. I do it often. Here is a pic of me trail-braking with my knee on the ground:

[Kirk]

point is rely on yer front brakes
point 2 because yer expert road racer does not mean yer an expert street rider
after 25 years straight on the street and 10,000 miles a year (local riding)
i have found fronts 90% of all my braking  accapt in questionable road conditions
on the freeway i do not jjust jam on th front binders(less ya wanna die like a retard)remember wind will help slow ya down alot
i sit up and scrub speed off as well as applying brakes silmiltanously.
racetracks dont have alot of loose shit on the road like up here

Dennis, your words have weight because...well, you've gone 250 mph and you're still here talking to us. But with all due respects, have you ever gotten your knee down? There are other aspects of riding.

I don't know what the roads are like there. Like I said above, when I ride in snow and stuff, I use my rear brake a little too. There just isn't enough traction available for the front tire to be able to transfer enough weight to the front tire.

And I deploy the air brakes too. I use all the tools available to me.

[Kirk]

WWJD- I also avoid using the rear brake just to enforce the habit.

[Kirk]

The basic MSF class is designed to teach you how to handle a Honda Rebel 250 well enough to be able to get your motorcycle endorsement. If you ride a Honda Rebel 250 and your highest aspiration in terms of riding skill is to be able to pass your motorcycle licensing test, then by all means use both brakes all the time. Those bikes have shit tires, shit brakes, shit suspension, and are barely fast enough to take on the freeway.

[Kirk]

also if your brakeing so hard that you are on the front wheel you prolly will be just about stopped when the rear wheel hits back on the ground so i dont think it will make much difference if the rear is locked up
I have locked up my rear many times on purpose and never thought i was going to loose control.

I'm going to ask you to re-read and re-think. You can hike the rear tire at 200 mph- it has nothing to do with being stopped. And you can believe that the only stability a motorcycle has is in the gyroscopic effect of the rear wheel turning. That's why motorcycles have side stands- they wont' stay up when the rear wheel is not turning. You touch the rear brake during threshold braking, and you lose that stabilization.

Imagine riding along at 60 mph with no hands- the bike stays upright and continues to go straight. Now imagine riding along at 60 mph with no hands and stomping the rear brake hard enough to lock up the rear wheel. You'd be sliding down the road with a new understanding of this subject.

You need the rear wheel to continue turning in order to stabilize the bike. I don't know how many different ways I can say this.

[02SE]

Kirk wrote:

Trail braking is braking that continues past your turn in point.

I agree.

You are "trailing" off the (front) brakes

Not necessarily ONLY the front brake, I trail brake with my front and occasionally the rear brake too. But obviously only briefly with the rear. By that time I should be settled, and mainly concerned with the apex, and feeding in as much throttle as possible to get a good drive out of the turn.

[suzuki4life]

also if your brakeing so hard that you are on the front wheel you prolly will be just about stopped when the rear wheel hits back on the ground so i dont think it will make much difference if the rear is locked up
I have locked up my rear many times on purpose and never thought i was going to loose control.

I'm going to ask you to re-read and re-think. You can hike the rear tire at 200 mph- it has nothing to do with being stopped. And you can believe that the only stability a motorcycle has is in the gyroscopic effect of the rear wheel turning. That's why motorcycles have side stands- they wont' stay up when the rear wheel is not turning. You touch the rear brake during threshold braking, and you lose that stabilization.

Imagine riding along at 60 mph with no hands- the bike stays upright and continues to go straight. Now imagine riding along at 60 mph with no hands and stomping the rear brake hard enough to lock up the rear wheel. You'd be sliding down the road with a new understanding of this subject.

You need the rear wheel to continue turning in order to stabilize the bike. I don't know how many different ways I can say this.

Your rear tire produces 20-30% of your available stopping force. THAT is why people use it.

[Kirk]

First of all, this topic should really be split into two categories: one for everyday normal street riding and one for track riding.  As I have never ridden track I can not accurately speak for why racers may or may not want to use their rear brakes on the track however I can speak about the street riding portion.

I've ridden on both. I'm an instructor for our novice road racing school. We teach racers to not use the rear brake. So does Keith Code in his Twist of the Wrist books and videos and his California Superbike School.

Realistically, when talking about straight line stopping as an avoidance skill anyone that only uses their front brakes should be considered foolish at a minimum.  Anyone that thinks their front brakes provide 100% of their stopping power, should go back to school and retake some mathematics classes.

Front brakes only account for 100% of your stoppnig ability if you either (a) negate the fact that you have a rear break or (b) it is the only brake you apply at that point in time.  

The FACT is, the front brake is only accountable for 80% of the total stopping  power of the motorcycle.  The rear the remaining 20%.

This leads to two methods of interpretation (glass is half empty/full kind of thing) at this point.  In the emergency situation where you are only using the front brake you are immediately robbing yourself of this stopping power.  For many more casual street riders this can certainly mean the difference between life and death.  As the rear break is designed as a control mechanism to be used for both balance and direction under these circumstances.

If you want to take the optimistic approach (glass is half full), congratulations!  You just added 20% to your chance of having an accident.

This is so wrong and dangerous that I don't know where to start. The weight distribution of the motorcycle determines the available stopping power, and that weight distribution is constantly changing. If your front tire is off the ground (wheelie), you do not have 80% of your available braking power coming from the front wheel. You've got 0%. Likewise, if your back tire is off the ground, you don't have 20% of your available braking power coming from the rear wheel. You've got 0%. Or if both tires are off the ground (jump), you've got 0% available at both ends.

It seems that some riders (not just you) seem to think that using the rear brake somehow magically keeps the back tire from coming off the ground, and it's just not true.

Think about what happens to the weight distribution of a motorcycle through the full range of braking force application. In very mild braking  you might have 45% of your weight on the rear tire, and 55% on the front. If you brake harder (front, rear, whatever) you may end up with 25% on the rear and 75% on the front. This is about as hard as most street riders are willing to brake, even if it means that they die because they can't stop in time. Let's say that you want to live, so you need to stop harder. At 95% front and 5% rear, how much rear brake application is it going to take to lock up the rear wheel? Not much. 98% front and 2% rear? Now we're getting into threshold braking. The rear tire is already squirming around for traction because it has almost no weight on it. Do you want to tax it further by applying the rear brake? Can you use the "light as a feather" touch with your foot on the rear brake lever while crushing the front brake lever with your hand in an emergency braking situation? How about 100% front and 0% rear. You're now stopping as hard as you can (any harder, and the rear tire will come up and possibly over), and the gyroscopic stabilization of the rear wheel is the only thing keeping you upright. If you touch the rear brake, you're probably going down. And the rubber in your front tire is much better at stopping you than the paint on your helmet. You'll stop much quicker if you can keep the bike up.

[Kirk]

Where do you guys come up with these arbitrary 80/20/30% numbers? Did you read it in a book or something? Parroting information fed to you by others is not the same thing as knowing something. Think about it- the weight is constantly shifting back and forth on the bike. Read my post above. Please.

[Kirk]

Kirk wrote:

Trail braking is braking that continues past your turn in point.

I agree.

You are "trailing" off the (front) brakes

Not necessarily ONLY the front brake, I trail brake with my front and occasionally the rear brake too. But obviously only briefly with the rear. .

Yes, I suppose you could theoretically trail-brake with the rear brake also, but if you're banked over, that's just asking for a high-side. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've seen it.

[Kirk]

everyone I have ever chased thru highspeed twisties, everybody at the trackdays, even the instructors at the classes I have taken [msf and track] have pounded into my head the front break is your only friend.  I use front about 99% of the time, and that last 1% I'm just practicing using the rear break less.   Yes, you DEFINITELY should know how to use both and get a feel for that cuz when you get there you will realized the rear is MOSLTY useless.  Not totally.  I use rear a LOT in winter because there is so much sand and other crap on the ground the front locks and slides out.  but for normal riding, front front front.  But KNOW both.    Rear obviously can help out but everything I've heard and read from lots of experienced people say go with the front.  Even those Twist of the Wrist books say:

"overusing the rear brake is so common as to be almost a fast of life.  Many riders and racers have given up using the rear brake for hard braking."

HARD BRAKING.  Exactly.  Sure, when putzing around, use the rear if ya feel like it.  Personally, when putzing around, I AVOID the rear just to enforce the habit.  I ride with my right toes on the peg track style and just leave it.    Except on crapped up winter roads.    There's my $.75 worth  

This is just so good that I have to quote you.

[suzuki4life]

Where do you guys come up with these arbitrary 80/20/30% numbers? Did you read it in a book or something? Parroting information fed to you by others is not the same thing as knowing something. Think about it- the weight is constantly shifting back and forth on the bike. Read my post above. Please.

No offense Kirk, but if you take rider training, advance rider training or even most riding schools they PREACH the 80/20% rule of good braking

[Kirk]

everyone I have ever chased thru highspeed twisties, everybody at the trackdays, even the instructors at the classes I have taken [msf and track] have pounded into my head the front break is your only friend.  I use front about 99% of the time, and that last 1% I'm just practicing using the rear break less.   Yes, you DEFINITELY should know how to use both and get a feel for that cuz when you get there you will realized the rear is MOSLTY useless.  Not totally.  I use rear a LOT in winter because there is so much sand and other crap on the ground the front locks and slides out.  but for normal riding, front front front.  But KNOW both.    Rear obviously can help out but everything I've heard and read from lots of experienced people say go with the front.  Even those Twist of the Wrist books say:

"overusing the rear brake is so common as to be almost a fast of life.  Many riders and racers have given up using the rear brake for hard braking."

HARD BRAKING.  Exactly.  Sure, when putzing around, use the rear if ya feel like it.  Personally, when putzing around, I AVOID the rear just to enforce the habit.  I ride with my right toes on the peg track style and just leave it.    Except on crapped up winter roads.    There's my $.75 worth  

This is just so good that I have to quote you.

[Kirk]

Where do you guys come up with these arbitrary 80/20/30% numbers? Did you read it in a book or something? Parroting information fed to you by others is not the same thing as knowing something. Think about it- the weight is constantly shifting back and forth on the bike. Read my post above. Please.

No offense Kirk, but if you take rider training, advance rider training or even most riding schools they PREACH the 80/20% rule of good braking

Most riding schools DO NOT teach that. And the ones that do are wrong. That's my point. They are wrong, they repeat it to other people, who in turn parrot it to anyone that will listen. That info may be a good general rule of thumb for riding something with cable-operated drum brakes, tube-type Cheng Shin tires, and a single-cylinder air-cooled powerplant capable of top speeds approaching 65 mph. But modern sport, sport touring, and sport standard bikes are capable of much, much more.