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Author Topic: Who uses the rear brake and why?  (Read 32857 times)

Offline 02SE

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2005, 12:15:03 AM »
Quote from: Kirk
Quote from: 02SE
Kirk wrote:

Quote
Trail braking is braking that continues past your turn in point.


I agree.

Quote
You are "trailing" off the (front) brakes


Not necessarily ONLY the front brake, I trail brake with my front and occasionally the rear brake too. But obviously only briefly with the rear. .


Yes, I suppose you could theoretically trail-brake with the rear brake also, but if you're banked over, that's just asking for a high-side. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've seen it.


Like I said it would only be briefly, before the bike is really banked over. And that would be mostly in a lower speed street scenario, where your not riding 10/10th's.

On the track I agree, you want to have all your braking done before you tip the bike in (at least as much as possible). I guess we agree.   :)

Offline WWJD

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2005, 12:17:25 AM »
Quote from: suzuki4life
Your rear tire produces 20-30% of your available stopping force. THAT is why people use it.


30% ?!?!?!  When is that?  Under 30 mph?  I estimate MY rear brake effectiveness - in accordance with the way I drive USAULLY, to be less than 5%.  Meaning I usually scream around and stop hard and fast with the front, loading all the weight to the front eliminating the rear as ANY useful stopping.  Granted, not the best technique for street riding but A)  I watch my surfaces VERY CLOSELY  b)  I'm aware of my surroundings and distances c) I'm used to it.   I know what MSF teaches, but most of us have SPORT bikes now and use them more than class ever showed.  Gett get that world experience stuff?  

BTW  NEVER ride past your limits and abilites, but work up to it.  For the doubters, and those who wear out rear brake pads, ;)  I say give the FRONT ONLY thing a try.   First time you are leaning into a corner and going to fast and grab some front break and NOT the rear, you'll thank us!  It's your only hope.
2003 Suzuki GXS1300R Silver/Grey "Hayabusa" since April 29th 2003  >Stock for life<

Offline Kirk

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2005, 12:18:28 AM »
Quote from: 02SE
[Like I said it would only be briefly, before the bike is really banked over. And that would be mostly in a lower speed street scenario, where your not riding 10/10th's.



Briefly is all it takes to pole-vault you into the ICU or the morgue. And you will react in a 10/10ths or emergency situation like you train. It's called muscle memory. There is no way to train yourself to do things one way 99.999% of the time and then do something completely different in an emergency. You'll hit the rear brake and die.
-Kirk

Offline WWJD

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2005, 12:19:55 AM »
[/quote] This is just so good that I have to quote you. :)[/quote]



Wow!  Quoted TWICE! ..... I'm honored   :D
2003 Suzuki GXS1300R Silver/Grey "Hayabusa" since April 29th 2003  >Stock for life<

Offline Kirk

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2005, 12:22:22 AM »
Quote from: WWJD

BTW  NEVER ride past your limits and abilites, but work up to it.  For the doubters, and those who wear out rear brake pads, ;)  I say give the FRONT ONLY thing a try.   First time you are leaning into a corner and going to fast and grab some front break and NOT the rear, you'll thank us!  It's your only hope.


This is true. If you're going to go down because you've over-loaded one tire or another with braking forces, which one would you rather it not be? If you lose the front, you fall a couple of inches and slide behind the bike. If you lose the rear, you high-side, typically falling 5-6 feet vertically as well as being accelerated to a speed much higher than you were actually riding. And then there is the Wile E. Coyote effect of sliding into curb/car/tree and then being hit by your own bike, which is following you.
-Kirk

Offline 02SE

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2005, 12:32:50 AM »
Quote from: Kirk
Quote from: 02SE
[Like I said it would only be briefly, before the bike is really banked over. And that would be mostly in a lower speed street scenario, where your not riding 10/10th's.



Briefly is all it takes to pole-vault you into the ICU or the morgue. And you will react in a 10/10ths or emergency situation like you train. It's called muscle memory. There is no way to train yourself to do things one way 99.999% of the time and then do something completely different in an emergency. You'll hit the rear brake and die.


Trust me, I only ever lightly use the rear brake, and only occasionally in lower speed street scenarios. Or low traction conditions.

You will never find me stomping on the rear brake, even in a panic situation.

I have been in panic situations more than a few times, and have always made it through (knock on wood).

I know about force of habit (or muscle memory), and stabbing the rear brake has never been a standard practice for me.

I know where you're coming from, relying on the rear brake would be a bad habit to get into.

Offline smiddy1

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2005, 12:46:50 AM »
I'm sorry if you take this wrong.

Why do they make pro team put rear brakes if they're useless? Do they make them put rear brakes on moto gp bikes? If not, are you saying that you could out brake Nicky on the same bike. Do you know something they dont? I don't get all this knowledge from 5-6 years of street bikes. Why would they put rear brakes on any bike if they're useless? Just tell me this. Do any pro riders (ama, world super bike, moto gp) use the rear brake? Yes they do! You are wrong. They are not useless.
Lookin' for a '03 40th, or '02 le in great shape. Need help, starting to get the shakes, snapping out at friends. I didn't know it would hit so soon. BUSA, it's a hell of a drug!

Offline Kirk

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2005, 12:50:01 AM »
Street bikes have rear brakes because state and federal motor vehicle equipment laws require them to. Race bikes have rear brakes because racing rules require them to.

And Valentino Rossi may use his rear brake, but I'm not him, and neither are you.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2005, 12:53:33 AM »
Many racers cut away a significant portion of the rear brake pads by beveling them so that it will be easier to slam the rear wheel home when changing rear tires quickly. Many racers cheese-hole their rear rotors until there's almost nothing left of them. And Yoyodyne Titanium markets titanium rear rotors along with a warning not to actually try to brake with them.
-Kirk

Offline TufBusa

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2005, 01:06:52 AM »
Boy Howdy, I can see accidents looking for a place to happen!

There are a number of you guys who would be well advised to pay attention to what Kirk is trying to get across. A corner is a corner is a corner is a corner! Doesn't matter if it's on the track or on your favorite twisty. The only difference, on the track there are no trees or sign post or utility poles to hit when you learn your lesson about braking.

I am a living testimonial that what Kirk said is factual. I wadded my first busa with 6K miles on it by just barely touching the rear brake at the wrong time when I was braking hard (On a favorite twisty road by the way). I was straight up when it bit me before I reached the corner.  That puppy launched me like a rocket ship at NASA. I was airborne for what felt like a week and when the dust settled, I was lying in the grass with what was left of my beloved busa about twenty feet away. There were busa pieces scattered for two hundred feet before it hit an embankment and splattered. You couldn't even tell it was a busa?

Like Motorhead, I had been riding bikes for 25 years and thought I knew how to ride? Well, I learned a real lesson about the rear brake. DON'T use it unless you are an "EXTREMELY" skilled rider.  I still use mine when I'm just putting around town but once I hit the curves or open road, I move my toe back to the foot peg so I'm not tempted to use it. Any  time you apply the front brake it takes weight off the rear tire and make it suseptable to locking up. And believe you me, it doesn't take much in certain situations. If you are hard on the front brakes and lock the rear tire, you just barely have time for a quick "Oh Shit" and you are on the deck. I know, I was there!

When I attended Mike Sullivans Race School in Spokanne Wa. The very first thing he told us was if we couldn't ride like Valentino Rossi, "DON'T USE THE REAR BRAKE"! He said most of the crashes from first time racers was due to using the rear brake.

It puts a little smile on my face to hear some of you compairing your riding habits to Moto GP. Moto GP guys use the rear brake because they are the most skilled bikers on the face of the earth. They use the rear brake to start a skid into the corner then keep the skid going with throttle. It's called "Backing it in". There are a few of the local racers here that do that as well, but not many. I could be wrong but I'm thinking there is not a busa guy on this site that can "Back his Busa In" when he hits the corner? Not even Kirk! The only reason you would want to use the rear brake when braking is if you want to start a skid. I don't think most of us want that to happen?

For those of you who are going to the track this summer for the first time on your beloved busa or whatever bike you take, the best advise you can take with you is "Stay off the rear brake" I've seen a great deal of guys on the track for the first time, get a first hand experience with the dreaded "High Side". And it's almost always due to the use of the rear brake. Once the rear tire starts to skid, we just don't seem to be capable of keeping the brake on and laying it down gently in a lowside. Instint takes over and we quickly release the brake and yep, kirk is right, it's all over at that point except the slow walking and the sad singing. Lots of broken collar bones as a result of a body slam on the tarmat such as Hulk Hogan would invy! It's not a pretty sight!

For those of you who have doubts about Kirk's wisdom, I urge you to educate yourself in the use of the rear brake. Go to the track and chat with some of the guys who ride much better than you. Most of them are happy to answer questions you may have.

And for those of you who have doubts and are much to skilled to ever highside, just take your busa out on a nice flat stretch of road, kick her up to about 80 knots, pretend a car just pulled out in front of you, stand on the front brake and just gently give the rear brake lever a little nudge. When you heal up, share your experience with the rest of us!
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Offline smiddy1

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2005, 01:10:21 AM »
Quote from: Kirk
Street bikes have rear brakes because state and federal motor vehicle equipment laws require them to. Race bikes have rear brakes because racing rules require them to.

And Valentino Rossi may use his rear brake, but I'm not him, and neither are you.

First off you took it the wrong way.

Second, I never said I was anyone.

Third, Moto gp does NOT make them place rear brakes on a bike.

Fourth, Rossi is about the fastest MOTHER FUCKER on earth! And he uses the rear brake :shock: ! Don't you think that if you might be able to go faster? Or does he not know what's up :roll: ?

Fifth, Are you even the fastest guy at the track? Do the guys at the track ever use their rear brake? Ask them, or are they keeoin' something from you.

You're wrong they are not useless....................
Lookin' for a '03 40th, or '02 le in great shape. Need help, starting to get the shakes, snapping out at friends. I didn't know it would hit so soon. BUSA, it's a hell of a drug!

Offline Busa@11K

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2005, 01:11:03 AM »
Quote from: Kirk
And Valentino Rossi may use his rear brake, but I'm not him, and neither are you.


:lol2: Well, maybe I'm his big brother then ... because I've used the rear brake (in proper harmony with the front brake of course) for over 25 years on the street and have never had a problem.

The key is to know how and when and to what level the rear brake should be used! :yes:
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline smiddy1

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2005, 01:22:05 AM »
Quote from: Busa@11K
Quote from: Kirk
And Valentino Rossi may use his rear brake, but I'm not him, and neither are you.


:lol2: Well, maybe I'm his big brother then ... because I've used the rear brake (in proper harmony with the front brake of course) for over 25 years on the street and have never had a problem.

The key is to know how and when and to what level the rear brake should be used! :yes:


Thank you, I guess that's what I've been wanting to say.

Mabey Kirk should say, I don't have the skills to use my rear brakes so they are useless to me.

Rear brakes are not useless.
Lookin' for a '03 40th, or '02 le in great shape. Need help, starting to get the shakes, snapping out at friends. I didn't know it would hit so soon. BUSA, it's a hell of a drug!

Offline Busa@11K

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2005, 01:40:47 AM »
Quote from: Quasar
Why does a professed expert like Kirk have such a problem applying something as simple as his rear brake without incident or complaint after all his years of riding experience? That just strikes me as humorous and the answer is abundantly clear. The best of braking still won't save anyone from every predicament that crops up on the streets or Kirk wouldn't have eaten that pickup truck a while back. I know, low blow right? Sorry Kirk but you more or less asked for it when you use your expert status to ill advise others.


:lmao: ... nice evaluation.  Ya, maybe he should consider just a little more rear brake next time.  :P
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline 02SE

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2005, 01:41:38 AM »
Tufbusa wrote:

Quote
I could be wrong but I'm thinking there is not a busa guy on this site that can "Back his Busa In" when he hits the corner?


You would be wrong.

Believe it or not, there are some very good riders out there. I have been riding motorcycles for 27 years, 20 of those on streetbikes. I have been on racetracks, and I can "back my Busa in" if I feel like it. I have also ridden dirtbikes all those years, having the bike a little "loose" isn't that big a deal, if you're used to it.  

Am I Rossi?, hell no. Do you have to be Rossi to use your rear brake?, obviously not.  :wink:

I should have just said what Busa@11K did, and be done with it.

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The key is to know how and when and to what level the rear brake should be used!

Offline Busa@11K

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2005, 01:56:45 AM »
Quote from: TufBusa
I am a living testimonial that what Kirk said is factual. I wadded my first busa with 6K miles on it by just barely touching the rear brake at the wrong time when I was braking hard (On a favorite twisty road by the way). I was straight up when it bit me before I reached the corner.  That puppy launched me like a rocket ship at NASA.


Humm ... while "straight up" ... before the corner?  Are you sure the front tire didn't wash out on you? :wink:
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline Quijinn

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2005, 02:02:46 AM »
Ok just want to say Hi, I am new to this site.  :D  Some back ground about 7 years and close to 25k miles on bikes. Had a 96 GSXR 750 for 5 years till a car did the old left from a right lane at the light we where going through. Yah I was in the left lane, and doing the speed limit for once  :? Ohh btw red and Black 2005 Busa in 1 month give or take a week. Waiting for the weather to start warming, and just get all the money lined up.
   I am no expert, nor do I know all there is about rideing, can anyone???
I do know this, I feel it is wrong to inform ppl there is no place for the rear brake on the street. I belive the topic has kinda gotton a bit off, It seems to me to have become a debate on if the rear brakes should be used at all vs when they should be used. In a conor at 140 mph, well I can agree slamming the rear break will cause you pain, but so will slamming the front. If you are in a conor that hard brakeing is non existant, its more like feathering or coaxing the brakes. To much front in a conor will stand the bike up right? To much rear will slide the ass or cause high side.
   My 2 cents, the rear brake is a tool, and it has its place. The key on the street is to know that place. We all know (well most of us) that the harder you brake in a straight line the less your rear brake works. The 80-20 or 70-30 front/rear I have seen posted refears to performace cars. Since most cars never indo, then the rear brakes always do some work, but cars do nose dive and weight transfear will cause the front to do about 70-80% of the work. Bikes vary the more brake used the less the rear works, but (you knew a but was comeign didnt you?) what happens when you lose the front brake.
    Example, a few years back my friend pulled a wheelie comeing out of a small conor just outside the city. His back tire broke loose at about 60-70mph as his front came up. It twisted him up and slamed him crank case first into the ground just in front of me. As the bike slide past me into the grass on the far side it left most of oil in its path. He also slide across my path, I would say I was doing about 60 mph and very little lean by this point maybe 10* as the road was almost straight. My front tire was covered in oil and as began to pull the front brake the tire locked up almost instantly, ended up with a good deal of tank slap. I was able to use the rear brake to slow the bike down throught that mess, I didnt hit my friend or any of the other riders near me.
    There have been many times I have had to compensate for lose of traction, or a manuver that was caused by someone else, useually cars. 90% of those times it was all front brakes, 9% was front and rear and 1% was all rear brakes. I have always spent the time adjusting all my tools, Clutch lever, front brake lever, and rear brake pedal. I get them so they feel right to me, they fit in the places where my fingures are strongest and most comfortable, and my rear brake is adjusted so that I have to rotate my foot to lock it up. I can touch it with my toes and get that grab that is sometimes needed. I belive everyone should spend the times setting up all there parts on the bike to fit and feel right to them. I also belive in spending time getting used to the feel of everything. I spent alot of time in long parking lots locking up tires front and rear on the bike till thresholds became instinct.
    Sorry for the long post, and this is a rough one to make a first post on, so much can be taken the wrong way. I am in no way trying to or meaning to insult anyone. I just do not agree with a street rider not knowing how that rear brake feels. Sand, dirt, aspault rolling under a tire, oil, glass ect.  can limit the front tires ability under normal street rideing.
In a conor you better know every inch of you bike and how it feels or grabing the rear brake is the least of your problems.
      Remeber its a war on the street, ride like you are invisable to every car. Know how the bike feels and how it will react, and pray you never end up with that, it was a 1 in a million chance that would happen.
   
     Well hope to have my bike soon, and the wether clears up. I hate the cold ahaha. I look forward to getting to know you all, and hope someday to ride with you all.  Take care and be safe.  Mark
Hi my name is Mark and I am a Bikeaholic.     Be carefull how fast you race through life, the finish line is death, and the trophy is a headstone.  Our perspective is how we judge our lives, to judge others we need a little change in our perspective.

Offline smiddy1

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2005, 02:09:36 AM »
Quijinn, hope to see ya at the Derby.
Lookin' for a '03 40th, or '02 le in great shape. Need help, starting to get the shakes, snapping out at friends. I didn't know it would hit so soon. BUSA, it's a hell of a drug!

Offline Quijinn

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2005, 02:15:20 AM »
lol Lived in this town for 5 years and still have not gone to that darn thing. Maybe this year I will make it  :lol:
Hi my name is Mark and I am a Bikeaholic.     Be carefull how fast you race through life, the finish line is death, and the trophy is a headstone.  Our perspective is how we judge our lives, to judge others we need a little change in our perspective.

Offline Busa@11K

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2005, 03:39:01 AM »
Quote from: Quijinn

I do know this, I feel it is wrong to inform ppl there is no place for the rear brake on the street. I belive the topic has kinda gotton a bit off, It seems to me to have become a debate on if the rear brakes should be used at all vs when they should be used. In a conor at 140 mph, well I can agree slamming the rear break will cause you pain, but so will slamming the front. If you are in a conor that hard brakeing is non existant, its more like feathering or coaxing the brakes. To much front in a conor will stand the bike up right? To much rear will slide the ass or cause high side.


That's right ... good post Quijinn.  A good rider will not even use brakes in the corner because if he rides right he has slowed down to the proper speed for the corner entrance.  The key is to use both the front and rear brake in proper unison to slow down to proper speed before the corner.

If you have to use a lot of brake (way more than just a "feathering") once in the corner, then you have entered it too fast.
PMDC Motor Theory ... Back EMF is the Key.

Offline Mr. Demeanor

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2005, 06:35:30 AM »
Rain.
Most of the time you cant use 100% of your front brake on the street. Rain is an axample but any number of traction limiting factors come into play.
Braking in a corner. Another common scenario where you would not want to brake with the front to the point of 100% weight transfer.
Braking in a corner while its rainng comes to mind as well.  :wink:  
I also find it easier to use in slow speed control.
Pardon my spelling...I cant see the keyboard!!!!!

Offline TufBusa

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« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2005, 10:11:17 AM »
Quote from: 02SE
Tufbusa wrote:

Quote
I could be wrong but I'm thinking there is not a busa guy on this site that can "Back his Busa In" when he hits the corner?


You would be wrong.

 I have been riding motorcycles for 27 years, 20 of those on streetbikes. I have been on racetracks, and I can "back my Busa in" if I feel like it.
Am I Rossi?, hell no.

I'm not calling BS on this one and I'm certainly not doubting your word. However, if you can back your busa into the corners, I'd like to come hang out at your next track day and video that event. I personally have never seen a guy without a number plate back into the corners. Even with the local racers, there are only a few who can do it. I've never seen anyone on a street bike back it in on a track day and I've never even heard of anyone who backs a busa in? So I think it's worthy of such skill to video tape the event and post it so all our members can view it in awh? If you've been at it for 20 years maybe someone has taken a picture of you with your knee on the deck, tires crossed up with smoke coming off the rear tire just before the apex of the corner (Just like Rossi)? I wouldn't think a rider with those skills would have gone unnoticed and unphotographed for 20 years?
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Offline eddie j

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Who uses the rear brake and why?
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2005, 10:22:48 AM »
I do not use the rear brake in the rain or on wet roads cause the wheel will lock up VERY easy in that condition-also do not use it for braking at high speeds.

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2005, 10:46:27 AM »
I backed my Hayabusa into turn 9 at PIR regularly, using the OEM slipper clutch. You can get all the rear wheel braking force you need without ever using the brakes. Just use that big engine and the slipper clutch your bike came with.

I'll share a couple of experiences with you:

I bought my Hayabusa as my first bike. After a short time, I realized that just about every time I had to go to an ICU to visit a riding buddy, it was because he had high-sided himself off the rear brake. I took my Hayabusa in to do the riding portion of my motorcycle test to get my motorcycle license. Part of the test was a braking test. They have you accelerate to a certain speed, and then at a pre-determined point, you stop the bike as fast as you can do it under control. Other people, using both brakes, were stopping about mid-way through the distance markings off to the side. I came to a stop on one wheel, before the distance markings even started. The DMV employee said that he'd been doing this for quite some time, and he'd never seen anybody stop that fast. He didn't even know what to put down on the form.

My novice weekend was the only time that I have ever been on track (during a race) on my Hayabusa at the same time that the 600s were on track. Everybody told me that I'd pass them on the straight, and then they'd repass me on the brakes before I even got to the corner. It didn't quite work out that way. I did blow the fiberglass off of them going down the front straights. And I took even more of them on the brakes.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2005, 10:48:09 AM »
Powersmoke- You need to learn to trust your tires. I do stoppies in the rain. I do two-up stoppies in the rain.
-Kirk