Haybusa Parts and Service Member Support

Author Topic: Busa at the Track  (Read 10872 times)

Offline dcnblues

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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2005, 07:57:24 AM »
Some of this advice is a little too pro for the inexperienced.

First item you'll want is a three quarter zipper on your jacket and pants.  Can't get out of group C without them.

Unless you're buying dedicated track tires, or making your busa a dedicated track bike, you don't want race tires.  You want good street tires.  Race tires are only good for a few heat cycles, then get MORE slippery than street tires.  Also, they won't last.

Stock suspension on the busa is amazing and highly adjustable.  Better than anything any racers had fifteen years ago.  98% of owners I'm sure never play with the six different adjustment settings.  I'm 220 pounds and my suspension setup was done by a pro and I've had three track days and bottoming the front suspension isn't a problem.  Maybe there are some stock front springs that are weaker than the ones that came on my bike, but don't get the idea that your stock setup needs to be junked.  Clearance on the busa is fine.  Unscrew the feelers on the footpegs, get the front suspension cranked high enough that you don't bottom it, and you'll never grind engine cases or fairings.  I suspect those that do either had unusually weak front springs, or more likely had their suspensions set too soft (which is often how the dealer sets up the bike).  Very rare to hear about the busa touching parts due to lean angle.  You can put a zip tie around your fork slider.  After each ride, slide it back up.  The action of the front suspension will push it down.  Properly set up, it won't get within a half inch of bottom of tube.

Unless you're experienced and fast at the track, your stock brakes should be fine as well.  They can go all day with little fade.  Once you spend more time and your lap times really drop, sure you can look into race pads and steel lines, but don't be surprised if these give you a less cushy feel for street riding.  

(don't forget the braking technique you should also be using on the street: two fingers on the brake, the rest on throttle for control on downshifting.  No other way to properly downshift at the end of the straight...)

On the track, it's all about rider, not machine.  Anyone who's not as good as me, I'll be passing, even if he's on a gixxer 1000.  Only the pros get close to the limits of these new bikes.  That's what's great about the track: passing a 750 gixxer on the outside of a curve is pretty gratifying...

Offline 02BluBlkBusa

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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2005, 08:02:04 AM »
I have to work on my ride position.  That's just one of the many things I need to get better at.  
Question about dragging parts in the corners.  Since my bike is not a race bike I have all the normal street equipment, like the side stand.  So far I have only had two parts on the bike drag the ground, and both are on the left side.  I drag the side stand and the engine case.  There has only been two other Busa's even show up at the local track.  One was a pure track bike, with full suspension mods and he said the bike was 1.5 inches taller.  He smoked me on the track.  I'm not trying to make a pure track bike, so I don't see putting that kind of $$$$ into the bike.  But I was wondering if that extra inch is worth having?  Do I need to raise the bike about 1 inch to fix the dragging?
Thomas
'02 Blu/Blk

Offline dcnblues

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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2005, 08:05:39 AM »
Yeah.  Tighten your suspension.  It'll feel like a new bike.  Much stiffer, much less cush.  Much more reactive.  Less good with potholes.  Much more interactive with the road.

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Sportbiking: The Real World 2
by  Gary S. Jaehne

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556303882/qid=1110463466/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-2992979-6640657?v=glance&s=books

Offline dcnblues

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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2005, 08:19:40 AM »
Quote from: 02BluBlkBusa
I have to work on my ride position.  That's just one of the many things I need to get better at.  ..


One of the points people miss about getting off the seat and moving around is that you're not just moving weight to the side.  You're also trying to move weight FORWARD.  You get the weight on the balls of your feet and your hands, you get up off the seat, you slide around the tank, you grip the tank with your high side knee, and you get your center of mass FORWARD.  Take a look at the next picture you see of pro racers in action.  Their helmets are way up next to the front fairing, often where your mirror would be.

The closest analogy I can think of is jumping a dirtbike or even mountain bike (bicycle).  Get some air, and land the bike.  Probably you landed on the back tire first, then the front.  Do the same jump again, but land on both tires exactly at the same time.  You'll feel twice the shock absorbtion, and twice the comfort and control.

Getting your forward / backward balance right on a sportbike is kind of the same thing.  You'll be in the middle of corner leaned over, and suddenly it'll feel perfect.  You'll have enough weight forward that the front and rear tires are perfectly balancing the center of mass of you and the bike.  The bike feels, in that balance point, much, much more capable.  More capable of lean, and speed, and steering ability, and grip.  

It's a really wonderful sensation.  But a lot of riders sit too far back and never feel the bike handle the way it should.  The busa has FANTASTIC handling.  It's an amazing performance machine and it's only limitation at the track is that it weighs 550 lbs.  But the handling is perfect...

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2005, 10:59:42 AM »
Quote from: 02BluBlkBusa
 
Question about dragging parts in the corners.  Since my bike is not a race bike I have all the normal street equipment, like the side stand.  So far I have only had two parts on the bike drag the ground, and both are on the left side.  I drag the side stand and the engine case.  There has only been two other Busa's even show up at the local track.  One was a pure track bike, with full suspension mods and he said the bike was 1.5 inches taller.  He smoked me on the track.  I'm not trying to make a pure track bike, so I don't see putting that kind of $$$$ into the bike.  But I was wondering if that extra inch is worth having?  Do I need to raise the bike about 1 inch to fix the dragging?


Improved body position will get you tons more ground clearance. Get your head down like you're trying to put the right bar end in your left ear and vice-versa. Take some time, work up to it. You need to be comfortable.

The extra inch or so of ride height in the back will help, but not just because you're raising hard parts. It will also help because it will steepen the steering up, making it take less lean angle for a given corner. You can make your own shorter dog bones. It's really easy, and costs about zip. Shortening the wheelbase will help it to turn tighter with less lean angle too. Even one tooth of difference (5/16") makes a pretty noticable difference, and you can go up to three teeth shorter than stock.

You can also do sort of a reverse side-stand mod to get the side stand up a little higher.

But get some fork springs in it. They ride so low in the suspension's travel up front (with stock fork springs) that you're going to drag stuff.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2005, 11:01:59 AM »
Quote from: Twisted
don, you taped your lights but left the mirrors on?


Me too. Just one more thing to break off if you suddenly take up "high-speed gardening", and it increases the chances of breaking the ear off of the fairing stay (as well as the upper fairing itself).

Pull the mirrors, and use a zip-wrap through the holes to hold the fairing still.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2005, 11:04:54 AM »
Quote from: dcnblues
Yeah.  Tighten your suspension.  It'll feel like a new bike.  Much stiffer, much less cush.  Much more reactive.  Less good with potholes.  Much more interactive with the road.

--------

Sportbiking: The Real World 2
by  Gary S. Jaehne

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556303882/qid=1110463466/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-2992979-6640657?v=glance&s=books


Not to pick on you, but "tighten your suspension" is a hopelessly vague statement.
-Kirk

Offline 02BluBlkBusa

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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2005, 11:24:31 AM »
Kirk,
What do you mean by this?  More info please.  Thanks

Quote
You can also do sort of a reverse side-stand mod to get the side stand up a little higher.
Thomas
'02 Blu/Blk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2005, 11:26:51 AM »
Quote from: dcnblues
Some of this advice is a little too pro for the inexperienced.


My advise included notes on A,B, and C-group riders. I indicated that other than fork springs, stock stuff is fine for C-group.

Quote
First item you'll want is a three quarter zipper on your jacket and pants.  Can't get out of group C without them.


The question was about bike prep, so I limited my comments to that.

Quote
Unless you're buying dedicated track tires, or making your busa a dedicated track bike, you don't want race tires.  You want good street tires.  Race tires are only good for a few heat cycles, then get MORE slippery than street tires.  Also, they won't last.


Again, I made specific tire recommendations for A.B. and C-groups. Any sport tire with enough tread depth is fine for C-group, although for safety, it would be better to have a 180/55 than a 190/50. For B-group, track-day type tires are better because of the front tire traction that you're going to need on braking, and the rear tire traction that you're going to need on corner exits. A brand new set of tires is cheaper than a collar bone. For A-group, race rubber is most appropriate. You might be able to do A-group lap times slithering and sliding around on Pilot Roads or MEZ4s, but how would you feel if you took out another rider and bike because you were over-riding your tires. A brand new set of race tires in the morning that you throw away at the end of the day is the most prudent course of action. You're not out there alone, and you need to be able to fit into the group as well as possible, and that doesn't include blasting down the straights and parking it in the corners.

Quote
Stock suspension on the busa is amazing and highly adjustable.  Better than anything any racers had fifteen years ago.  98% of owners I'm sure never play with the six different adjustment settings.  I'm 220 pounds and my suspension setup was done by a pro and I've had three track days and bottoming the front suspension isn't a problem.  Maybe there are some stock front springs that are weaker than the ones that came on my bike, but don't get the idea that your stock setup needs to be junked.  Clearance on the busa is fine.  Unscrew the feelers on the footpegs, get the front suspension cranked high enough that you don't bottom it, and you'll never grind engine cases or fairings.  I suspect those that do either had unusually weak front springs, or more likely had their suspensions set too soft (which is often how the dealer sets up the bike).  Very rare to hear about the busa touching parts due to lean angle.  You can put a zip tie around your fork slider.  After each ride, slide it back up.  The action of the front suspension will push it down.  Properly set up, it won't get within a half inch of bottom of tube.


Dood. That half inch at the bottom- that IS the bump stop. Spring selection has little to do with personal preference- It's basic arithmatic. Claiming or deciding that you "like" the stock fork springs isn't going to make them work any better. The flaccid stock .85 kilo fork noodles are correct for riders between 30 and 80 pounds, in their gear. My Hayabusa was about 75 lbs lighter than stock, and even with 1.0 kilo fork springs, I was bottoming the forks on the brakes some. But with stock fork springs, the front of the bike falls like a fainting goat any time you try to do any significant braking. Nobody here that has gone to the correct fork springs for their bike has had anything less than gushing praise for the improvement. There is no "adjustment" that's going to make the fork springs work. I don't know what kind of "pro" is going to be able to get you to 32-36 mm of sag in front with stock fork springs. You can crank the compression all the way in, and it may slow it down enough that you don't feel it hitting the bump stops, but it is.

It is so mentally draining to have to use the throttle to try to hold the front end up in corners. If you let off the throttle, the front end falls, hard parts hit the ground, the suspension bottoms out- nothing good is going to come from it.

With the correct fork springs in it, you can just ride the bike. Until you try it with the correct fork springs in it, you really don't know what you're missing. It's a huge difference.


Quote

Unless you're experienced and fast at the track, your stock brakes should be fine as well.  They can go all day with little fade.  Once you spend more time and your lap times really drop, sure you can look into race pads and steel lines, but don't be surprised if these give you a less cushy feel for street riding.


As I indicated, stock brakes are fine for C-group. But you'd better have decent pads in it if you're going to be going fast. If you pack someone in A or B-group because your stock brake pads had turned into blue glass, you're not going to be very popular at the track.

EBC's "kit" race pads are extremely streetable, as are braided stainless brake lines. I don't want my brakes to feel mushy.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2005, 11:30:14 AM »
Quote from: 02BluBlkBusa
Kirk,
What do you mean by this?  More info please.  Thanks

Quote
You can also do sort of a reverse side-stand mod to get the side stand up a little higher.


Happy to help, man. :)

I'm assuming that you know how to (and have done) the sidestand mod to your bike.

It's just like that, except you're grinding a little bit off in order to let the sidestand come up a little bit higher. It's been a while since I've done it, so I can't give you exact directions, but it's not rocket science. I can't remember if you have to do anything with the sidestand switch or not, but take measurements before and after, and take a close look at it, and you should be able to see where you need to remove metal to get it up higher.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2005, 11:41:09 AM »
A quick word on stator covers-

It may seem like a "race oriented" modification, but the stock stator cover offers all the protection of tissue paper. If you oil the track, you're going to make it a pretty short day for everybody else that paid to be out there. Also, the stator has really good leverage on the end of the crankshaft. If you drop a 550 lb. motorcycle on the stator, it will probably bend the crankshaft, totalling your engine. With an aftermarket billet stator cover, it just grinds down the stator cover as the bike slides to a stop.
-Kirk

Offline 02BluBlkBusa

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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2005, 11:43:58 AM »
Thanks Kirk,

No I haven't done the side stand mod.  I read about it, but I just never got to it.  I do know what you mean now.  Thanks.
Thomas
'02 Blu/Blk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2005, 11:48:30 AM »
Quote from: dcnblues
One of the points people miss about getting off the seat and moving around is that you're not just moving weight to the side.  You're also trying to move weight FORWARD.  You get the weight on the balls of your feet and your hands, you get up off the seat, you slide around the tank, you grip the tank with your high side knee, and you get your center of mass FORWARD.  Take a look at the next picture you see of pro racers in action.  Their helmets are way up next to the front fairing, often where your mirror would be.


I respectfully disagree. The reason that our heads are closer to the windscreen is because our heads are lower. On corner exits, we do get as far forward as we can, to keep the front end down, but on corner entry and mid-corner, your weight should be right where it is when you're in a race tuck sitting on a bike stand, except that you will be off to the side of the bike. There may be minor variations of riding style along these lines that are neither right nor wrong, but the idea of "rotating" around the tank when getting off the seat is not a good thing to teach.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2005, 11:50:15 AM »
Quote from: 02BluBlkBusa
Thanks Kirk,

No I haven't done the side stand mod.  I read about it, but I just never got to it.  I do know what you mean now.  Thanks.


Ooh. Run out and do it right now. It'll save you a bunch of expensive plastic at some point. Just notch it enough that it will go an inch or so further forward when it's fully down. It's the difference between a side stand and a suicide stand.
-Kirk

Offline WWJD

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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2005, 12:06:56 PM »
doesn't hiking off and/or knee dragging position the bike more upright also thus not dragging parts?  I scraped my right fairing when I was new, but now it never comes close cuz I can hang off more

:)  I've never modded my kickstand and never have a problem.  I think when I park  :D
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Offline Kirk

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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2005, 02:06:06 PM »
Yes. That is the extra cornering clearance that I spoke of. :)

Oh, and go mod your suicide stand. :lol:
-Kirk

Offline WWJD

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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2005, 03:53:13 PM »
No.  Mine works fine as is.  I even park leaning left, down hill!  Yeah, I'm a wildman!!!
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Offline L.A. Don

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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2005, 09:40:36 PM »
Quote from: Kirk
Quote from: dcnblues
One of the points people miss about getting off the seat and moving around is that you're not just moving weight to the side.  You're also trying to move weight FORWARD.  You get the weight on the balls of your feet and your hands, you get up off the seat, you slide around the tank, you grip the tank with your high side knee, and you get your center of mass FORWARD.  Take a look at the next picture you see of pro racers in action.  Their helmets are way up next to the front fairing, often where your mirror would be.


I respectfully disagree. The reason that our heads are closer to the windscreen is because our heads are lower. On corner exits, we do get as far forward as we can, to keep the front end down, but on corner entry and mid-corner, your weight should be right where it is when you're in a race tuck sitting on a bike stand, except that you will be off to the side of the bike. There may be minor variations of riding style along these lines that are neither right nor wrong, but the idea of "rotating" around the tank when getting off the seat is not a good thing to teach.


I agree with Kirk on this one.  You don't want to put alot of weight on your hands!  Actually, when leaned over in a corner you want a relaxed grip on the handlebar, allowing the suspension to do its job.  If you apply alot of pressure (weight) or if you have a "death grip" on the handlebars when leaned over, you are just fighting the front suspension, thus preventing it from working as it was designed.  You will hit bumps and grooves in the corner, if you have too much pressure on the handlebar, the suspension can't work properly.

Offline L.A. Don

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« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2005, 10:34:45 PM »
I don't see how you guys corner without rearsets.  I constantly scrape my pegs on tight corners, limiting my abilities.

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2005, 12:46:19 AM »
Don's got it. Don't hold onto the handlebars any more than it takes for you to be able to make your control inputs. If it wants to shake, wiggle, or wag, let it. If you try to support yourself with your hands in a corner, you're just inviting a tank-slapper on corner exits, and you're probably making a lot of unintentional control inputs mid-corner, causing you to change lines and then have to correct for it. It can make a mess out of your riding.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2005, 01:31:12 AM »
Quote from: BigGar
Quote from: L.A. Don
I don't see how you guys corner without rearsets.  I constantly scrape my pegs on tight corners, limiting my abilities.

If your suspension is up to the task for your riding weight, you shouldn't be touching stuff down so easy.  I used to think I was a hero draggin' shit all the time, then I had my forks reworked and cranked up the rear preload.  Presto, lots more ground clearance.  Spend your money on upgrading the suspenders before you buy some blingin' rearsets.


Gar


Is there an echo in here? :lol:
-Kirk

Offline Mospeada

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« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2005, 02:56:01 AM »
All of the above. I also do not have rearsets, just after market gixxer 7 pegs on it.

I also have links. But the 'stock' location actually raises it about 1/4 of an inch. Combined with my Ohlins rear, and also I use a 190/55/17 tire, I have a good amount more of clearance.

But I'll also add, aside from lines and pads, I bought a Brembo radial Master Cylinder and an RC51 reservoir. About $300 total, and COMPLETELY transforms the braking. Best mod and bang for the buck. A cheaper mod would be a gixxer 6 or 7 radial master cylinder. Either or, I can't express enough that this should be one of your top 10 list.

Good tires are going to be #1, though.

Take off like a 13, flick it like a 6

Offline L.A. Don

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« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2005, 08:34:22 AM »
Cool pic Mospeada, what track do you go to in so cal?  Is that Willow Springs?

Offline Kirk

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« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2005, 10:11:36 AM »
Looking good. Your picture demostrates that we really don't need rearsets. Maybe the Gixxer pegs that some of us use are gaining us some ground clearance.

I see you have a billet stator cover and frame sliders.

Now get your head down and to the inside, and you'll pick up a ton of ground clearance. ;)
-Kirk

Offline WWJD

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« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2005, 10:13:23 AM »
pptttthhhp!   PHOTOSHOPPED.   We ALL KNOW busa's can't turn, busa's can't lean, busa's can't corner...
2003 Suzuki GXS1300R Silver/Grey "Hayabusa" since April 29th 2003  >Stock for life<