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Author Topic: Max HP for all motor 1300?  (Read 18584 times)

Offline Wolf1397

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2005, 09:57:41 PM »
Quote from: mike45
It is also easier to get a higher CR with a 2 valve head as the chamber can be smaller too.


To the contrary, it was harder to achieve very high compression ratios on the 2-valve Kawasaki Pro Stock engines at the time.  This was due to the valve angle in the head and a large, almost hemi like combustion chamber.  It was much easier to achieve desired compression ratios with Suzuki’s shallow “pentroof “ combustion chamber.  That was one of the reason most of the field at the time used Suzuki 4-valve engine.  The late Dave Schultz was the only one that was (somewhat) competitive with his Byron built 2-valve Kawasaki.  NHRA changed the rules a few years after I left the sport and it became advantageous to use 2-valve heads.  However neither the GS 1000 or Kawasaki’s heads supported the airflow needed for a 1500 cc engine.  Hence the Vortex large port, large valve heads.  I do not know how the valve angle and combustion size on those heads compared to the stock 2-valve heads.  They might be shallower and lend themselves better to high compression

As far as 20k rpm, we will see that in Formula 1 next year since they are changing the engine rules from 3.0 liter V-10s to 2.4 liter V-8s.  They are already exceeding that rpm on test engines…  Currently, the V-10 revs to just over 19k and lasts (mostly) two complete race weekends.

Wolf

Offline Yngve at work

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2005, 01:03:44 AM »
Quote from: mike45
The point is 2 valve heads will support tremendous HP through airflow just at a lower redline. Vortex heads-which rule 4 cylinder Pro Stock


Vortex heads rule 4 cylinder Pro Stock because of 1500cc vs 1327 on the 4 valve.  If the 4 valve were allowed 1500 you would see 300+ hp out of 4 cylinder and 6,8 et..

Offline DarkFalcon

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2005, 05:46:08 AM »
Quote from: Wolf1397


To the contrary, it was harder to achieve very high compression ratios on the 2-valve Kawasaki Pro Stock engines at the time.  This was due to the valve angle in the head and a large, almost hemi like combustion chamber.  It was much easier to achieve desired compression ratios with Suzuki’s shallow “pentroof “ combustion chamber.  That was one of the reason most of the field at the time used Suzuki 4-valve engine. /quote]

I would only add that combustion turbulence inherent in the compact pentroof design allows for yet further increases in CR's.

Offline mike45

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2005, 11:03:12 AM »
Quote from: Wolf1397
Quote from: mike45
It is also easier to get a higher CR with a 2 valve head as the chamber can be smaller too.


To the contrary, it was harder to achieve very high compression ratios on the 2-valve Kawasaki Pro Stock engines at the time.  This was due to the valve angle in the head and a large, almost hemi like combustion chamber.  It was much easier to achieve desired compression ratios with Suzuki’s shallow “pentroof “ combustion chamber.  That was one of the reason most of the field at the time used Suzuki 4-valve engine.  The late Dave Schultz was the only one that was (somewhat) competitive with his Byron built 2-valve Kawasaki.  NHRA changed the rules a few years after I left the sport and it became advantageous to use 2-valve heads.  However neither the GS 1000 or Kawasaki’s heads supported the airflow needed for a 1500 cc engine.  Hence the Vortex large port, large valve heads.  I do not know how the valve angle and combustion size on those heads compared to the stock 2-valve heads.  They might be shallower and lend themselves better to high compression

As far as 20k rpm, we will see that in Formula 1 next year since they are changing the engine rules from 3.0 liter V-10s to 2.4 liter V-8s.  They are already exceeding that rpm on test engines…  Currently, the V-10 revs to just over 19k and lasts (mostly) two complete race weekends.

Wolf
 I totally agree with you on the OEM 2 valve heads and CR difficulties. I know one person who raced a CB-SOHC in the early 70's and had to resort to things like positive deck height of .200 with a counterbore in the head to get the CR he wanted. This also caused problems with valve reliefs which broke through the top ring groove. They called it a custom gas port. Valve to vlave clearence was about .025 and only worked because of Ti valves:wink: My point, which I should have stated better and not after 2 Chimay Ales, would be a 2 valve engine has the potential for a smaller chamber and would flow enough if you can get the valve angle down. As far as the 20,000RPM, I'm sure they are way beyond that. I just think it is interesting Honda was testing such limitsand making 2 cylinder 50cc engines that revved to 19,700RPM almost 50 years ago.

Offline mike45

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2005, 11:06:03 AM »
Quote from: Yngve at work
Quote from: mike45
The point is 2 valve heads will support tremendous HP through airflow just at a lower redline. Vortex heads-which rule 4 cylinder Pro Stock


Vortex heads rule 4 cylinder Pro Stock because of 1500cc vs 1327 on the 4 valve.  If the 4 valve were allowed 1500 you would see 300+ hp out of 4 cylinder and 6,8 et..
Well, the rules are the rules. I doubt if you'd see 300+ HP if you slapped an FJ head on. :wink:

Offline DarkFalcon

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2005, 04:50:28 PM »
Quote from: mike45
My point, which I should have stated better and not after 2 Chimay Ales, would be a 2 valve engine has the potential for a smaller chamber and would flow enough if you can get the valve angle down. As far as the 20,000RPM, I'm sure they are way beyond that.


Blue Chimay is my favorite...........and I believe it has the highest alcohol content.  :wink:

Offline mike45

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2005, 07:34:15 PM »
Quote from: DarkFalcon
Quote from: mike45
My point, which I should have stated better and not after 2 Chimay Ales, would be a 2 valve engine has the potential for a smaller chamber and would flow enough if you can get the valve angle down. As far as the 20,000RPM, I'm sure they are way beyond that.


Blue Chimay is my favorite...........and I believe it has the highest alcohol content.  :wink:
Grande Reserve my friend...I guess we have something in common. :wink:

Offline Wolf1397

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2005, 08:20:39 PM »
[/quote]  I know one person who raced a CB-SOHC in the early 70's and had to resort to things like positive deck height of .200 with a counterbore in the head to get the CR he wanted. [/quote]

Based on your location, I have a feeling that was my former boss Rick.  He used to race CB 750 before the GS1100.

Wolf

Offline mike45

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2005, 06:53:09 AM »
Quote from: Wolf1397
 I know one person who raced a CB-SOHC in the early 70's and had to resort to things like positive deck height of .200 with a counterbore in the head to get the CR he wanted. [/quote]

Based on your location, I have a feeling that was my former boss Rick.  He used to race CB 750 before the GS1100.

Wolf[/quote] Bingo. You must know Dana Johnson(a very good friend of mine).

Offline Wolf1397

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2005, 10:24:42 AM »
Quote from: mike45
Quote from: Wolf1397
 I know one person who raced a CB-SOHC in the early 70's and had to resort to things like positive deck height of .200 with a counterbore in the head to get the CR he wanted.


Based on your location, I have a feeling that was my former boss Rick.  He used to race CB 750 before the GS1100.

Wolf[/quote] Bingo. You must know Dana Johnson(a very good friend of mine).[/quote]

Dana is a good friend of mine and has been very helpful with Gerry's Bonneville projects.   You must know Stanley as well?

Wolf

Offline Kiwi

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2005, 03:12:48 PM »
Was looking at Bonneville records. Someone called Rick Yacoucci went 220mph in 2001 in the 1350cc class. Presumably it was a Busa and close to  1300cc. Obviously making good HP. Anyone know details?

Offline mike45

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2005, 06:54:00 PM »
Quote from: Wolf1397
Quote from: mike45
Quote from: Wolf1397
 I know one person who raced a CB-SOHC in the early 70's and had to resort to things like positive deck height of .200 with a counterbore in the head to get the CR he wanted.


Based on your location, I have a feeling that was my former boss Rick.  He used to race CB 750 before the GS1100.

Wolf
Bingo. You must know Dana Johnson(a very good friend of mine).[/quote]

Dana is a good friend of mine and has been very helpful with Gerry's Bonneville projects.   You must know Stanley as well?

Wolf[/quote] I've met Stanley several times but I haven't had to use his services as I have mostly done work with plain bearing cranks. He did refuse to modify an FJ basket for me though :?  Anyway you and I know many of the same fella's. I have Zint @ Lindskog do most of my balancing stuff. Do you know Dave Gilbert by any chance???

Offline Wolf1397

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2005, 07:11:16 PM »
Quote from: mike45
I've met Stanley several times but I haven't had to use his services as I have mostly done work with plain bearing cranks. He did refuse to modify an FJ basket for me though :?  Anyway you and I know many of the same fella's. I have Zint @ Lindskog do most of my balancing stuff. Do you know Dave Gilbert by any chance???


Stanley is a funny fellow.  I know both Zint and Dave as well.  Where you around HMP in 1987-1989?  I worked for both Rick and George Bryce during those years.

Wolf

Offline Wolf1397

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2005, 07:18:27 PM »
Quote from: Kiwi
Was looking at Bonneville records. Someone called Rick Yacoucci went 220mph in 2001 in the 1350cc class. Presumably it was a Busa and close to  1300cc. Obviously making good HP. Anyone know details?


This is a different Rick.  His company has built several Bonneville bike for a guy named Gerry.  Among them a 1989 turbo nitrous GSXR 1100 that set a record of 214+ MPH despite wastegate problems.  That was the worlds fastest Suzuki for the better part of a decade.  As it turns out, it was also one of the last bikes I worked on before I started my military career.

Wolf

Offline mike45

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Max HP for all motor 1300?
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2005, 07:37:36 PM »
Quote from: Wolf1397
Quote from: mike45
I've met Stanley several times but I haven't had to use his services as I have mostly done work with plain bearing cranks. He did refuse to modify an FJ basket for me though :?  Anyway you and I know many of the same fella's. I have Zint @ Lindskog do most of my balancing stuff. Do you know Dave Gilbert by any chance???


Stanley is a funny fellow.  I know both Zint and Dave as well.  Where you around HMP in 1987-1989?  I worked for both Rick and George Bryce during those years.

Wolf
Nice way of putting it :wink: I was still in RI during that time...I just missed you. Shoot me a PM with your name - I'm seeing Dana and Dave tomorrow and I'll say hello for you sir. :wink: You near Biddeford in Maine or real north?