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Author Topic: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!  (Read 64661 times)

Offline mike46

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2006, 08:38:57 AM »
Mike,

Wow...I had no idea you have worked on that many. Thats your prob....you see if you just started on them in the last year or so you WOULD be an expert...and know everything...LOL

Dave
OK...many not a thousand but enough to forget how many. :lol: :wink:
" The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessing, the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries"  Winston Churchill. Obviously Obama is no student of history.

Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2006, 12:05:25 PM »
One thing to think about is what Suzuki engineers had in mind when they designed the Busa head.
After all, they have access to the wet flow CFD and engine models and are fully capable of designing a port that cannot be improved upon by mere mortals.

IMO, the Busa head was designed for area under the torque curve and drivability without power spikes that would make the bike hard to ride.

When a porter goes to work..they are attempting to change those design criteria into something else.
Ports for peak horsepower are pretty simple high CFM deals.
A dyno comparision  like this is biased towards maximum flow without drivability or durability considerations.
If we had dyno curves it would be apparent that each of these porters has optimized their work for some particular goal on the power curve.
A port that works well for drag racing might be a disaster for a high hp road race engine.
Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances :lol:

This has been a very good discussion IMO.
Now if you knowledgable ones would cough up a bit more data..we could chat more.

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2006, 03:15:29 PM »
Just for you Peach Butt. The Hayabusa induction system starting at the top of the throttle body and terminating at the back of the intake valve...........is eleven inches long and is steadily tapered to the minimum cross sectional area in each of the siamese ports. These are right at the short side turn before the bowl. The taper is important as is the minimum cross sectional area...........as the latter determines the maximum air speed reached in the port. The taper assists in creating velocity. The minimum cross sectional area, in addition to determining maximum port speed, plays a big role in determining the point of maximum torque. Stock engines feature MCSA's (minimum cross sectional areas) that are oval in shape and approximately .81 inches high and 1.04 inches wide........yielding an area of 1.43 sq inches ( .81*1.04*.85*2)
The MCSA in a Ward head measures 1.0 inch in height and 1.18 inches in width; the MCSA in a V&H head measures .88 inches in height and 1.08 inches in width. The calculated areas become 2.00 sq inches and 1.62 sq inches, respectively. A 1397 wants to breath 235 CFM at full throttle but because of various losses actually gets around 212 CFM into the engine............this will vary marginally by head design assuming a decent head. Flow at 28" depression. Once you know flow, then you can calculate velocity using the reduced expression Port Velocity= CFM*2.4/MCSA. Using the 212 CFM and the port areas of the two heads, you can get an idea of relative port speeds. Ward would be 254 ft/sec and and V&H would be 314 ft/sec..............speeds at 28" depression which convert into live engine speeds of 493 ft/sec and 609 ft/sec. Most designers shoot for port speeds of .55Mach to .60Mach; speeds beyond this can bring about choke and lots of bad things. To calculate Mach, simply divide by the speed of sound which in this case is taken to be 1116 ft/sec. Thus, the Ward head would be .44 Mach and the V&H head would be .55 Mach.....which is inherently better. Spaz put a jockey on a SWB and ran 162 something; on Wards website a lengthened bike using the same fuel is reported as running 163 something. You deicde.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 01:45:42 AM by DarkFalcon »

Offline gazza414

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2006, 04:23:50 PM »
DF, looking at the Mach numbers you have calculated ,they have a fair bit to go before getting to choked conditions unless of course the velocities are mean :?:, therefore components are actually flowing a great deal more thru the orifice which will bring upon M1 local conditions.

We still need more info than posted than in the 1st post to "really" add alot more value to the info posted..that would be good to see.

ps cant ever remember the term "Peach Butt" in fluid dynamics classes..... must google that 1.
1 Fast Hayabusa N/A 217.443mph so far

Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2006, 01:57:16 AM »
Now that's some good info.
Same mph for both ported heads.
What mph would the stock head on the built engine do?

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2006, 05:59:53 AM »
DF, looking at the Mach numbers you have calculated ,they have a fair bit to go before getting to choked conditions unless of course the velocities are mean :?:, therefore components are actually flowing a great deal more thru the orifice which will bring upon M1 local conditions.

We still need more info than posted than in the 1st post to "really" add alot more value to the info posted..that would be good to see.

ps cant ever remember the term "Peach Butt" in fluid dynamics classes..... must google that 1.


Gazza, choke can happen at any speed but good heads will take up to .6 Mach.............but this would be a Superbike head. Ports don't actually go into sonic choke at .55 Mach - but at this point (approx.) we reach the trade off where the energy required to move the air through the port becomes higher than the power increase (cylinder filling) that comes from higher velocity which increases pumping losses.....like sucking on a small straw. Plus, the air and fuel start to separate.  Drag racing heads, as noted, are biased to the high end and usually have velocities in the .5 to .55 range simply because of larger port sizes and the interest of peak power. The calculated speeds are a mean speed through the MCSA............actual speeds through the port are determined by mapping the entire port CSA using a pitot tube and converting pressure readings into velocities; so averages can hide a lot. By posting this stuff I am not trying to help or hurt any head porter but simply stimulate conversation and offer my perspectives.  "Peach Butt" was for the benefit of Dakinebusa.

Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2006, 12:03:34 PM »
Peach Butt...Why in hell did Dolphin come up with that?
Maybe he has issues with smooth skin?

Anyway, as you all know, the average steady flow numbers used to characterize ports are crude guidelines that sorta keep things within limits.

Real two phase pulsating folw in ports is as much an acoustic phenomena as it is a steady flow problem.
In a real running engine pressure waves are bouncing all over the place as the ports interact with the inlet and exhaust systems.
I dont really know how sophisticated the models that are available to auto engineers are.
From my CFD experience the pulsating flow in a port can be calculated pretty well with a small supercomputer and a flow code like Fluent.
A good CFD guy could then fake in the droplet flow and maybe some atomization criteria because the fuel really doesn't have much momentum.
Put this together with an engine power criteria and calculate a few hundred port shapes and understanding should follow.
All this points out the wilderness that porters work in..flow bench or not.
Smokey Yunick had the tech in the '80's to measuere port flow on a real head while the thing is motored on a dyno.
The company engineers surely have this capability but I doubt anyone outside of factory teams can do port work using this tool.

I consider top speed at the 1/4 or whatever to be a good indicator of average peak power.
A well geared bike is in the meat of the powerband during the whole run.
By energy balance...top speed should scale with the square of average peak power.

I still would like to know how a stock head would run on the 1397.
It should be pretty constipated,,,I want to know how much.

BTW...That is Dr. Daddy Peachbutt.
PhD in Fluid Mechanics in ChE, 1974.
What I have forgotten!
 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Offline gnd111

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2006, 04:22:40 PM »
I still would like to know how a stock head would run on the 1397.

I can tell you it runs about 4-6mph less than a CNC ported head in the 1/4...

Offline whtrthanu

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2006, 04:27:49 PM »
THe best numbers that I have seen from a stock headed 1397 with mild cams around .400 lift and about  245 deg. with regular pump gas and an average aftermarket exhaust on my dyno was around 183-187 hp on SAE correction.............

Offline JC PAINT WORKZ

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2006, 08:14:51 PM »
well if this post is true thats awsome cause SHARKEY just did my head lol thats great news....

Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2006, 12:08:04 AM »
Wall...lessee
If a stock head 1397 will make 187 and a hot head one will make 215 rwhp.....
The square root of 215 over 187 is 1.07 or about 7% faster in the quarter..
So if the stock head won would run 148 the modde one would run 159...
Sound about right for simple math?

Nothing like boost.....

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2006, 06:59:39 AM »
Peach Butt...Why in hell did Dolphin come up with that?
Maybe he has issues with smooth skin?

BTW...That is Dr. Daddy Peachbutt.
PhD in Fluid Mechanics in ChE, 1974.
What I have forgotten!
 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok, Ok, Ok. It will be Dr. Daddy Peachbutt. :D And the acoustic phenomena that you refer to is fascinating and underlies wave tuning. If you start something, I'll probably chip in.

Offline gnd111

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2006, 10:26:14 AM »
THe best numbers that I have seen from a stock headed 1397 with mild cams around .400 lift and about  245 deg. with regular pump gas and an average aftermarket exhaust on my dyno was around 183-187 hp on SAE correction.............


13.5 MTC's, HMF Bigbird, Big box mod, Mega 385's int and exh and i got 195/114...

Offline b l u e b u s a 1

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2006, 08:12:11 AM »
has anyone on this site tried a ported busa head done by star racing in ga.??????

Offline THE ICE MAN

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2006, 09:25:38 AM »
Realy good post I enjoyed reading and seeing the way they stacked up allthough not with the cams intended for each head
but still gives some idea what to expect from each shop.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 09:29:01 AM by THE ICE MAN »
41 Maxton records 650 750 1000 1350 1650 2000 3000 3001+ classes top speed Turbo Busa 236.96 MPH Busa 1507 NA 223.330 MPH
Fastest N.A. 600 750 1000 1350 @ Maxton
Fastest N.A.Kawasaki ZX12 212.846  1 mile 1287cc
Fastest NA Busa @ Texas mile Goliad 217.0 MPH

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2006, 02:12:55 PM »
Cool stuff

Offline Thomas Lindemann

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2006, 09:19:52 AM »
I dont like the fact that you have to run that big ass intake cam in a Ward head to make it work especaily on a 1397cc motor. One of the if not first hayabusa motors Bob Carpenter built was a stock piston oversized titanium valve head with a .440' intake cam. Still had a stock exhaust port. They claimed that it made 200hp but I see that Carpenter has changed his thought on that. Dark are you saying that the Ward head is 24% smaller than a V&H head?

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2006, 10:03:35 AM »
I dont like the fact that you have to run that big ass intake cam in a Ward head to make it work especaily on a 1397cc motor. One of the if not first hayabusa motors Bob Carpenter built was a stock piston oversized titanium valve head with a .440' intake cam. Still had a stock exhaust port. They claimed that it made 200hp but I see that Carpenter has changed his thought on that. Dark are you saying that the Ward head is 24% smaller than a V&H head?

The MCSA in a Ward head measures 1.0 inch in height and 1.18 inches in width; the MCSA in a V&H head measures .88 inches in height and 1.08 inches in width. The calculated areas become 2.00 sq inches and 1.62 sq inches, respectively.

Thomas, at the minimum cross sectional area, the Ward head has around 24% more area than an early production stock valve Vance & Hines head. And after developing my own models and reverse engineering some very expensive engine software programs, I can tell you that a major driver behind required intake camshaft lift is the port velocity at the MCSA. This is why it is not unusual, if not the rule, that heads with big ports require high lift intake camshafts to compensate for the slower port velocity. The only time big ports can be justified is when there is an exponential increase inflow. When you are dealing with 1397's, though, there is no need for extensive flow additions to the head as the engine only wants 223 CFM at 10800 RPM and/or 235 CFM at 11400 RPM. A stock head flows around 220 CFM to 225 CFM at 28" so you can see big increases in flow are not the order of the day. I should note that what the engine wants is a net figure after frictional losses and measured flow is a gross measure before frictional losses. Rather, attention should be directed to shape, velocity, pressure recovery, turbulence....lack thereof... and mixture quality. As an aside, I have noticed that Carpenter is not as enthusiastic about oversized valves as he once was and is moving towards smaller ports. I should qualify this last point as I have not substantiated it by examing any of his more recent heads.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2006, 10:12:12 AM by DarkFalcon »

Offline Thomas Lindemann

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2006, 10:52:11 AM »
Interesting, I thought that the Ward heads were smaller port velocity heads that needed the larger cam to compensate for what it lacked in gross volume. I would assume they  (Ward) would favor higher lobe centers also?

Offline gnd111

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2006, 11:09:17 AM »
When you are dealing with 1397's, though, there is no need for extensive flow additions to the head as the engine only wants 223 CFM at 10800 RPM and/or 235 CFM at 11400 RPM

In theory maybe but big ported heads seem to be the rule of the day to get a 1397 over 156mph in the 1/4...

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2006, 11:15:58 AM »
Thomas, just to give you an idea of how important MCSA is I developed a simple program to calculate intake valve lift based only on a target port velocity and the accompanying MCSA. From this lift was determined. The results are shown below and would suggest that I am pretty close..............though there is always room for improvement. I should qualify that the lifts indicated below assumes stock valves and throats and a max RPM of 10800.

Engine Size.......................................Lift..........................................................................................................................................

1300...........................................351 to .370...................................................................................................................................

1397...........................................377 to .398...................................................................................................................................

1430...........................................387 to .408....................................................................................................................................

1507...........................................410 to .433...................................................................................................................................


Should you need any additional information, please feel free to PM me.



Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2006, 11:36:51 AM »
When you are dealing with 1397's, though, there is no need for extensive flow additions to the head as the engine only wants 223 CFM at 10800 RPM and/or 235 CFM at 11400 RPM

In theory maybe but big ported heads seem to be the rule of the day to get a 1397 over 156mph in the 1/4...

This is not theory in the clouds with no relationship to what happens on the track. And maybe big ports will get you 156..............but small ports will get you more. Depends upon what you want. A while back on another board there was a post about the fastest 1397's and five recognized bikes/engines were identified and they all had heads with smaller MCSA's; Spaz did one of the heads and, as I recall, the rest were done by Jason aka Fastheads. All five bikes were NA 1397's running oxy gas and had recorded speeds over 160 MPH in the 1/4 and all were running in the eights.....with two bikes on a stock WB. With big ports and higher lift cams you can probably get close to the same results, but why beat up the valve train?

Offline gnd111

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2006, 12:16:00 PM »
When you are dealing with 1397's, though, there is no need for extensive flow additions to the head as the engine only wants 223 CFM at 10800 RPM and/or 235 CFM at 11400 RPM

In theory maybe but big ported heads seem to be the rule of the day to get a 1397 over 156mph in the 1/4...

This is not theory in the clouds with no relationship to what happens on the track. And maybe big ports will get you 156..............but small ports will get you more. Depends upon what you want. A while back on another board there was a post about the fastest 1397's and five recognized bikes/engines were identified and they all had heads with smaller MCSA's; Spaz did one of the heads and, as I recall, the rest were done by Jason aka Fastheads. All five bikes were NA 1397's running oxy gas and had recorded speeds over 160 MPH in the 1/4 and all were running in the eights.....with two bikes on a stock WB. With big ports and higher lift cams you can probably get close to the same results, but why beat up the valve train?

All i know is a lower c/r 1397 with CNC Ward head 445/415 cams runs 6mph more consistently with same gearing as my 13.5 stock head 385/385...???...

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2006, 01:16:31 PM »
Gnd, we are not debating stock head versus ported head; I think we would agree upon that question. George's bike runs well and Rick Ward has a long record of accomplishments and his site features a lengthened 1397 running 162 or 163 something in the 1/4. My views on performance are simply that but I invest a fair amount of time in trying to understand why things work which allows to me to evaluate countless combinations before committing to something "hard". I could not find the post I referenced but dug up a post of a bike that has a Performance Porting head.......which incorporates small ports.

1.  Motor only.
2.  Brock's Performance
3.  57 3/8 inchs
4.  185 suited up.
5.  VP MRX01


The bike went 8.91 @160. We are about 1000 ft above sea level and I thiink it was 65-70 degrees. The bikes hp is in the low 220's.

I don't have the time ticket on me but the rest of the numbers are something like this:

 60 ft   1.50
330 ft  3.91
1/8th   5.86@130.00
1/4      8.91@160.6

Bryan those are real close except for the 1/8 speeds. When Sonny(THEFASTESTUNKNOWN) rode the bike the second time, his 1/8 speeds were 128 to 129 and he was picking up 32 in the back. Whenever he did a 1.5 anything, he was in the 8.9's.

Offline Thomas Lindemann

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Re: Ported Hayabusa Head...The Truth!!!
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2006, 01:41:07 PM »
What is a good general rule a mph is =to hp? 235 on a engine dyno is worth about 220 on a rear wheel?