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Author Topic: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike  (Read 14001 times)

Offline fastone

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what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« on: November 12, 2006, 12:34:20 PM »
I want to insall some 385 cams andsome head cleanup and mild port work. How much compression will shaving the head .020 yeild trying to get torque numbers up and make around 190hp with some tuning
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Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2006, 04:59:23 PM »
That is too much material to remove but it would bump the compresion up 1.2 to 1.4 points.

Offline fastone

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2006, 05:15:25 PM »
That is too much material to remove but it would bump the compresion up 1.2 to 1.4 points.
What problem would it yeild if I shave that much off the head. PTV clearance or cam chain tension problems. The stock compression is around 11.1 so that would make the compression around 12.2 to 12.4. Would this run pump gas. Talk to me before I have this done is my quest for more power. If I just remove the base plate how much gain or take .010 off the head
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Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2006, 05:55:14 PM »
Depending upon your stock clearances, removing the base or milling .010 from the head should increase your compression ratio .6 to .7 points. The problem with removing .020 from the head is the potential for shrouding the intake valves...... flow interference with the cylinder walls as they would now be closer. I would remove the base gasket and take .008 from the head....so you would be very close to 12:1 or slightly higher.

Offline fastone

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2006, 09:22:46 AM »
Thanks Dark Falcon that is what I wanted to know. I need somme good direction bro. a baseline to start with.
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Offline mountainmotor

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2006, 09:32:05 AM »
I need somme good direction bro. a baseline to start with.

Starters is that the factory stock Busa engines don't have base gaskets . Film of sealant yes , .020 Suzuki base gasket , no .
This is in reference to above when you asked

If I just remove the base plate how much gain or take .010 off the head

And nothing to do with DF's post on BG in which was probably an oversight since he answers so many 1397 questions
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 09:44:41 AM by mountainmotor »

Offline gnd111

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2006, 11:52:28 AM »
Suzuki does use a base gasket - better check your microfiche again...


Parts found with Part Number: 11241-24F00
Description GASKET,CYLINDER
Price $21.02

Offline mountainmotor

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2006, 12:40:00 PM »
Suzuki does use a base gasket - better check your microfiche again...


Parts found with Part Number: 11241-24F00
Description GASKET,CYLINDER
Price $21.02



 :lol:

Offline fastone

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2006, 12:48:27 PM »
I asked for answers to try to acheive between 190 to 200 rwhp without going 1397. I wasn't trying insult anyones knowledge or start an argument on who has themost knowledge or is the better mechanic. I need to know simple knowlwdge that I dont know so I appreciate whatever advice I'm given to advoid being screwed on motor work. Thanks guys. Thinking of just leaving the base alone and having my builder shave the head to acheive as close to 12.1 as possible. .010 I was told will give me 11.7.1 so I figure if I take .015 of the head this will leave enough for valve to have shrouding and it should get me close to my compression ratio of 12.1. The builder will cc the head and calculate thecompression by the stock bke measurement. With a maximum being removed of .015. I will be adding mea cycle 385 cams. With some minot exhaust port and bowl blending on the head cleanup and try to improve the exhaust ports a little. Now for thenext question I weight 275 suited and need to know what setting working best to degree the cams a for a big guy. need all the torque I can get from this combination. I'm also concerned with average tq and hp more than peak. avg wins races not peak.
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Offline mountainmotor

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2006, 01:09:47 PM »
I asked for answers to try to acheive between 190 to 200 rwhp without going 1397. I wasn't trying insult anyones knowledge or start an argument on who has themost knowledge or is the better mechanic. I need to know simple knowlwdge that I dont know so I appreciate whatever advice I'm given to advoid being screwed on motor work. Thanks guys. Thinking of just leaving the base alone and having my builder shave the head to acheive as close to 12.1 as possible. .010 I was told will give me 11.7.1 so I figure if I take .015 of the head this will leave enough for valve to have shrouding and it should get me close to my compression ratio of 12.1. The builder will cc the head and calculate thecompression by the stock bke measurement. With a maximum being removed of .015. I will be adding mea cycle 385 cams. With some minot exhaust port and bowl blending on the head cleanup and try to improve the exhaust ports a little. Now for thenext question I weight 275 suited and need to know what setting working best to degree the cams a for a big guy. need all the torque I can get from this combination. I'm also concerned with average tq and hp more than peak. avg wins races not peak.

You will make 175-180 horsepower with std bore and low compression. Torque will suffer no matter where you set the cams .

The numbers just won't be where you want them with this cam combo thats better suited for stout 1397's and ..... you do not have a factory base gasket . Serious !

Is this your combo or something some guy thats going to do the work for you dreamed up ? 

Offline Yngve

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2006, 01:17:35 PM »
All the stock Suzuki Hayabusa engines I have taken apart have had one base gasket.   I used 5 of them on my stroker back in 00 b4 there was a suitable spacer to buy.
I dont know what I am talking about but I do know that I am right :)

Offline mountainmotor

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2006, 01:24:35 PM »
Must be a non North America thing because I have had 5 apart last 2 years " 2 w/zero miles - 1 w/275 miles "  and no base gasket on any of them .

I always thought they made it available only to correct the compression when milling and reworking  stock engine rebuilds 


 fastone ,

you have a explanatory PM that will help you .
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 01:27:34 PM by mountainmotor »

Offline gnd111

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2006, 01:42:27 PM »
www.ronayers.com - has microfiche for all year Busa's and all show base gaskets.

GeorgeC's busa and mine each had base gaskets.  We bought both of ours in Florida...



Offline mountainmotor

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 01:53:26 PM »
Interesting . George's bike is an 05 model , correct ?

It's 5-3 now  :D

Offline PerformancePorting

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2006, 02:02:18 PM »
If you take that much material off the head you will get into the valve seats. The most material you can remove without hitting them is .011. Take .009 off the head and remove the base gasket use two stock intake cams. Have the head ported bore TB's good for 185-195.  Every Hayabusa I have seen has a base gasket.

Offline fastone

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2006, 02:51:17 PM »
base gaskets are on 1999- 2002 busa all have them. 2003-2006 depends on them block and and pistons used all parts numbers are the same but some have them and some don't in these years. some just have a sealant.
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Offline mountainmotor

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2006, 03:04:50 PM »
fastone ,

Did you get that dyno sheet I sent you ?

Offline mike46

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2006, 04:11:05 PM »
If you take that much material off the head you will get into the valve seats. The most material you can remove without hitting them is .011. Take .009 off the head and remove the base gasket use two stock intake cams. Have the head ported bore TB's good for 185-195.  Every Hayabusa I have seen has a base gasket.
Getting the squish tighter is good via removing the base gasket. How about a thin head gasket instead of milling. Add Yosh cams or 2 intakes with a good ported head and you will get what you want. I'm at 186 with 105lbs( .007 off the head, my ported head, stock pistons/head & base gasket and Yosh cams)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 04:12:50 PM by mike46 »
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Offline gazza414

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2006, 05:03:45 PM »
and an aftermarket exhaust Mike or stock system?

I've only seen all base gaskets on Busa's
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Offline mike46

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2006, 05:52:39 PM »
and an aftermarket exhaust Mike or stock system?

I've only seen all base gaskets on Busa's
TiForce..non Sumo. Small box mod, BMC, all short, ....pretty standard stuff-nothing fancy.
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Offline gnd111

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2006, 06:32:21 PM »
Interesting . George's bike is an 05 model , correct ?

It's 5-3 now  :D

Yep - Mine is an 02 and GeorgeC's is an 05.


Offline Pinky

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2006, 06:36:16 PM »
Must be a non North America thing because I have had 5 apart last 2 years " 2 w/zero miles - 1 w/275 miles "  and no base gasket on any of them .

I always thought they made it available only to correct the compression when milling and reworking  stock engine rebuilds 


 fastone ,

you have a explanatory PM that will help you .
my 04 has one and had it when i took it apart
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Megasquirt EFI

Offline Shamrock

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2006, 10:23:14 PM »
my 01-00 both did also 2 04's and a 05  welol lets see all the busa iv done have unless someone already  pulled it

Offline fastone

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2006, 08:58:13 AM »
my 01-00 both did also 2 04's and a 05  welol lets see all the busa iv done have unless someone already  pulled it
Good point some motors never see any miles before being modified
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Offline GeorgeC

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2006, 03:40:16 PM »
FWIW, the '00 motor I have apart right now had a base gasket...  Pretty sure it had never had the cylinder off before.

Offline badassblackbusa

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2006, 03:45:09 PM »
my 05 an my 02 both had a base gasket.
and to saint peter i will tell another solider reporting sir ive served my time in hell..

Offline mountainmotor

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2006, 04:54:21 PM »
FWIW, the '00 motor I have apart right now had a base gasket...  Pretty sure it had never had the cylinder off before.

Would you mind getting the measurement from the cylinder block base to the deck and PM with the number you come up with ?

Fixing to measure same but 05 model that came off the cases w/o base gasket .


Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2006, 05:28:16 PM »
This has turned into an interesting discussion and a number of solid points have been made..................particularly Performance Porting's observation regarding the limits of surfacing without getting into the seat. As to base gasgets, all of the bikes I have messed with, including late modes, have had base gaskets but that is not to say all Busa's have base gaskets. I wonder if there is some chance that deck height has become a manufacturing tolerance for Suzuki and when the piston in the hole by so much they use base gasket goo instead of a gasket to manage deck height and control squish ????????

Offline mountainmotor

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2006, 05:57:55 PM »
Well I am certainly no expert on casting tooling and how it may wear out or shift but the Busa engine has been made for quite some time now and during that time ......oh man can't imagine how many have been built but shifts certainly could happen I suppose . I also recall some 05's had other troubles/owners complaints albeit some minor , some engines dead and down under 500 miles

I know/heard the cam tunnels and alignment would get fairly far off on the little Chevy's in the distant past as the production run got near the end .

Ramble off  :D

I also have the lower cases that this particular block came off  but don't quite know how to go about measuring it to see if they might have a taller lower deck on it or not .

Offline GeorgeC

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2006, 07:16:38 PM »
FWIW, the '00 motor I have apart right now had a base gasket...  Pretty sure it had never had the cylinder off before.

Would you mind getting the measurement from the cylinder block base to the deck and PM with the number you come up with ?

Fixing to measure same but 05 model that came off the cases w/o base gasket .



The cylinder that came off that motor is now at APE...  Sorry.   :(

Offline mike46

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2006, 07:30:10 PM »
This has turned into an interesting discussion and a number of solid points have been made..................particularly Performance Porting's observation regarding the limits of surfacing without getting into the seat. As to base gasgets, all of the bikes I have messed with, including late modes, have had base gaskets but that is not to say all Busa's have base gaskets. I wonder if there is some chance that deck height has become a manufacturing tolerance for Suzuki and when the piston in the hole by so much they use base gasket goo instead of a gasket to manage deck height and control squish ????????

Christ, Honda doesn't give a crap about that why would Suzuki DF? I've seen 900RR's 929's (and a thousand others) at least .030 in the hole before the gasket. I've been staying out of this one BUT I haven't seen a Japanese engine since 1972 that didn't have a base gasket. I'm not the JC of engines but I've seen a few. What does dragzooks etc say.
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Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2006, 08:38:09 PM »
Mike, both you and Zooks have both been at this some time and both carry heavy credentials.

Offline mike46

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2006, 09:07:33 PM »
Mike, both you and Zooks have both been at this some time and both carry heavy credentials.
Thanks DF....I'm a baby compared to some others. :wink:
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Offline Busa Quick

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2006, 09:08:30 PM »
   I would think that they would cast the Cylinder block, then machine it to get a flat deck and vertical size to where they want it. Therefore, if they where to use base gaskets to correct squish it must be because of crank placement or something to do with the cases.

 Just my thoughts,
 Mark
Black and Purple 04, MY MODS: Turbo, .08 spacer, s2000 injectors, yosh cams 7.2 spring, heavy clutch springs, APE valve springs, raised rev limiter to 11,500 rpm with ignition cut only, using only stock ECM with Petrik reprogramming method,

Offline mike46

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2006, 09:16:17 PM »
   I would think that they would cast the Cylinder block, then machine it to get a flat deck and vertical size to where they want it. Therefore, if they where to use base gaskets to correct squish it must be because of crank placement or something to do with the cases.

 Just my thoughts,
 Mark
Not being a wise guy but don't think about it to much.
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Offline gazza414

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2006, 09:19:44 PM »
In my experience  10 thou off the head wont get you into the valve seats--plenty remaining...when you go 1mm O/S they tend to sit proud of the head face.

Looked at a build sheet from my last motor and the block measured at 4 points 87.89mm , 87.88mm , 87.895mm , and 87.89mm.

Maybe this discussion will end up with us getting into the max lift issue with stock valve guides as there were always percieved issues around this too...
1 Fast Hayabusa N/A 217.443mph so far

Offline Busa Quick

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2006, 09:38:44 PM »
   I would think that they would cast the Cylinder block, then machine it to get a flat deck and vertical size to where they want it. Therefore, if they where to use base gaskets to correct squish it must be because of crank placement or something to do with the cases.

 Just my thoughts,
 Mark
Not being a wise guy but don't think about it to much.

   I am not sweating the details. If it were me, I would probably just get the 1397 and not worry about all the close clearance issues that you get with head shaving and thin gaskets.

 Mark
Black and Purple 04, MY MODS: Turbo, .08 spacer, s2000 injectors, yosh cams 7.2 spring, heavy clutch springs, APE valve springs, raised rev limiter to 11,500 rpm with ignition cut only, using only stock ECM with Petrik reprogramming method,

Offline Ct Chip

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2006, 09:50:30 PM »
Carpenter removed the base gasket and shaved the head twelve thousandths on mine. he claims it's between 12 and 12.5 to one with the stock pistons. Runs fine on 93 octane pump gas.

Offline Busa Quick

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2006, 10:08:20 PM »

  What were your power results or impressions from the work?



 Mark
Black and Purple 04, MY MODS: Turbo, .08 spacer, s2000 injectors, yosh cams 7.2 spring, heavy clutch springs, APE valve springs, raised rev limiter to 11,500 rpm with ignition cut only, using only stock ECM with Petrik reprogramming method,

Offline Ct Chip

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2006, 07:41:21 AM »
On which dyno?
Bob's dyno is a DJ 100 updated to a 150. He does all his pulls from 7 grand to the rev limiter. I opted for his "200" stock piston kit not the "210" kit with the .425 intake cam and springs. The bike (2002 with 30,000 miles) was stock and had the original Ti-Force pipe (ceramic coated inside and out). On Bob's Dyno it made 202 with race gas and according to him tied for the most he's gotten out of that package. He claims that with the Sumo pipe it would make 5 more and be the most he's gotten from the "200" package. It made 197 on pump.
I live in CT and by the time I rode it home (180 miles) I knew the bike needed mapping. On Dyno Solutions (Danbury) 250i with no changes it made 180 SAE on pump. It was way rich almost everywhere but very close from 7,000 to 10,800.
Bob does the PAIR sucker mod as part of the package. After it was mapped I serviced the bike and found that both air box ports (the one to the crankcase and the one to the PAIR valve) were left open to atmosphere after the mod. I figured it would negate the ram air so I capped them - then back to Dyno Solutions to see if the map had changed.
It had.
After the second mapping the bike made 182 SAE corrected, 187 STD - right at the limiter.
We did some testing while on the dyno and the PAIR sucker mod is worth 2-3 horsepower. On that dyno, the strongest 1397 (cams, ported head etc) tested made 191 SAE. This 250i is apparently quite stingy.

The bike has 1,900 miles on it since the Carpenter package. Under 4,500 RPM it's softer than a stocker. Bob uses Megacycle 385/252 cams on intake & exhaust with the "200" kit (kind of big for a stock piston Busa - Dark Falcon you want to weigh in on this??), all short stacks in a modified air box (small box mod), high lobe centers and big ports so I wasn't expecting much low end torque. Power starts to come on at 5,000, hits hard at 7,000 and then hits even harder at 9,000. A pleasant surprise to me was at steady state cruise (70 MPH 6th gear) the bike returns mid to upper 40's MPG. Twist the throttle or a lot of around town, stop and go riding and the mileage plummets.
Bob has seen some cams go bad with his various packages so per his recommendation the bike idles at 1,800 - the only telltale sign that anything has been done. I'm a 56 year old gear head - it sounds WONDERFUL at that idle LOL.
Bob does his clutch mod as part of the package. The springs are on the heavy side so I went to three stock and three heavy springs - works fine. Bob also removes the thermostat. When the weather is in the 50's and 60's as it is this time of year here in CT the temp gauge would barely move off the "C" mark. We found on the DJ 250i that the map changed according to coolant temp so between the first and second dyno session I installed a new thermostat. It's fine - doesn't seem to run and different than stock temperature wise. Next summer will tell the story.
All of the work - engine assembly was perfect save for the mapping and open air box ports.
I have no leaks or issues. It starts hot or cold quicker than it did when stock. I'm very happy with the results and would use Bob again in a heartbeat. He's a great guy to deal with. If anyone wants more info feel free to email me at archieppo@comcast.net.
Chip

Offline Steve S

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2006, 08:51:12 AM »
On which dyno?
Bob's dyno is a DJ 100 updated to a 150. He does all his pulls from 7 grand to the rev limiter. I opted for his "200" stock piston kit not the "210" kit with the .425 intake cam and springs. The bike (2002 with 30,000 miles) was stock and had the original Ti-Force pipe (ceramic coated inside and out). On Bob's Dyno it made 202 with race gas and according to him tied for the most he's gotten out of that package. He claims that with the Sumo pipe it would make 5 more and be the most he's gotten from the "200" package. It made 197 on pump.
I live in CT and by the time I rode it home (180 miles) I knew the bike needed mapping. On Dyno Solutions (Danbury) 250i with no changes it made 180 SAE on pump. It was way rich almost everywhere but very close from 7,000 to 10,800.
Bob does the PAIR sucker mod as part of the package. After it was mapped I serviced the bike and found that both air box ports (the one to the crankcase and the one to the PAIR valve) were left open to atmosphere after the mod. I figured it would negate the ram air so I capped them - then back to Dyno Solutions to see if the map had changed.
It had.
After the second mapping the bike made 182 SAE corrected, 187 STD - right at the limiter.
We did some testing while on the dyno and the PAIR sucker mod is worth 2-3 horsepower. On that dyno, the strongest 1397 (cams, ported head etc) tested made 191 SAE. This 250i is apparently quite stingy.

This reminds of when Lee built my first 1397 and I left Charlotte with 215 HP on pump gas only to arrive in Dayton with 202 HP SAE..........it was tested that night upon arrival under similar conditions.

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: what compression is .020 shaved off the head on a stock bike
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2006, 06:23:14 PM »
Nice post Chip. I'm not a fan of the .385 on the exhaust...........but there is no point in belaboring the point. As to your measured power, I think the Danbury dyno is probably painting a more realistic picture than Bob's though the dyno does appear to be very conservative.